Foreign Affairs Committee on June 12th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Dr. Sangay.

We're going to go to Mr. Saini, and that will wrap up our questions for today.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, all of you, for coming.

Dr. Sangay, just as a point of information for you, I was born 125 kilometres from Dharamshala, in a small town called Mandi, in Himachal Pradesh—

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

Oh, yes.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

—which you probably know, so I'm very familiar with the presence in India.

I actually don't have a question. I have an opinion that I want to ask you about. If you look at what's happening in Tibet right now, there are certain things that are happening overtly and there are certain things that are happening subtly. When we talk about the belt and road initiative or the construction of airports, it seems to be that successively there's a greater and greater impact of China in Tibet. If you also look at the fact that two million nomads from Tibet have now been moved into the urban areas, that's another attempt to disrupt that way of life. Also, if you look at the surrounding countries, co-operation agreements have been signed to make sure that exiled groups are controlled or watched.

The question I have is this. If you look at the question of succession, it seems to me there's a diametrically opposed view. China wants to know who the successor is, and the Dalai Lama has said that is a religious question that will be solved. According to the Dalai Lama—he's now, I believe, 80 or 81 years old—that question will be answered either in his late 80s or when he's 90. But during that period of time, when, though there will be a successor, the successor is not known yet—and I know this is a very philosophical question—does China not then have more time to have a greater impact in Tibet, when there is an understanding that there will be another leader after the Dalai Lama? What is your opinion on that? You have parallel tracks: you have a religious track, where they don't know who the next Dalai Lama will be, and you have China, which is telling you that they have to approve the next successor. It seems to me that when that person emerges, there will be conflict at that point in time because China will want to know who the bona fide successor is, but that successor will not be chosen until the right and appropriate time.

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

Thank you very much for the very good question. Also, it's good to see someone from the neighbourhood.

You're right. I think that with the infrastructure and the Chinese migration they are trying to do their best to assimilate Tibet into China, but so far it has not worked, for two reasons.

Tibet is called the Tibetan Plateau, the “roof of the world”, because on average it's 4,000 metres high. It's very cold in winter. Chinese people come to Tibet during summer and have to leave Tibet during winter. Even Tibetans took thousands of years to climb from 3,000 metres to 4,000 metres, because wheat cannot grow at 4,000 metres, only at 3,000. We discovered barley, we moved up, and the yaks also came along. That's how we survived on the Tibetan Plateau. That took us 3,000 years. The Chinese will also take 3,000 years to genetically adapt to the Tibetan mountains. Only then can they survive. We have 3,000 years with us, so in that sense, it's true. Also, then, 70% of the Tibetan area is still nomadic and rural, where the Chinese infiltration and presence is much less and also very difficult. In that sense, we have some time: around 3,000 years for us, you know. It's a challenge.

In the urban areas, where there are more developments and better infrastructure, the Chinese are moving in for longer periods of time, but that's where the blatant discrimination is also happening, including in hiring and employment. Even Tibetans who have worked for the Communist Party and are loyal Communist Party members are never promoted to party secretary at the prefecture or county level, even though they are educated and credentialed people. They feel the discrimination.

For example, in 2008 just before the Olympics when there was a major protest all over Tibet, a nationwide protest, CCTV wanted a few Tibetan scholars—quote, unquote—to be on Chinese television to propagate their version of the story. They were flown from Tibet to Beijing. When they went to the hotel to check in, which was booked by CCTV, they were told, “You can't stay in this hotel because you are Tibetan, and you must stay in another hotel that is designated for Tibetans.”

Similarly, even the mid-level Communist Party members, when they went to Chengdu to stay in the usual hotel, were told that they couldn't stay in that hotel, that they had to stay in another one. Even the intellectuals, the party members, feel discrimination, so you can imagine it for the people. Hence, 152 Tibetans have burned themselves, have committed self-immolation. It's an act of desperation, yes, but it is also an act of determination. After 60 years, after three generations of Tibetans, the patriotism, feeling, and passion for the cause are still very strong.

In that sense, you're right. The Chinese government is doing its best to control, but it is not succeeding, hence we have this hearing and the delegation from China that also came to try to share their version.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, as I shared with you, ultimately it is for the Tibetan people to embrace the next Dalai Lama. Obviously, the next Dalai Lama that Tibetans will embrace will be the one recognized by us or the Dalai Lama, and not by the Chinese government, given their track record. To assume that there is a rational progression where there will be two candidates and there will be conflict I think is a fallacy, because the other candidate will have no credibility whatsoever. As I said, it's almost like Kim Jong-un saying “this is my Pope and all the Catholics should follow”. I doubt there would be anyone following that.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I didn't mean two candidates. I meant the candidate that finally emerges. That person may not be acceptable. It's not that there are two candidates, but that the one person who the Dalai Lama conveys is the next Dalai Lama may not be acceptable to everyone. How would you resolve that?

[Dr. Lobsang Sangay]

That will be acceptable to six million Tibetans. That's good for us. Even now, the present Dalai Lama is not acceptable to the Chinese government but is acceptable to us and six million Tibetans inside Tibet. That's the crux of the issue. Again, it's about Buddhism. It's about spirituality. The one recognized by the Dalai Lama will be embraced by Tibetans. Ultimately, spirituality is a matter of heart, a matter of faith. You can't force anyone's faith. You cannot buy anyone's faith. They have to believe it. It comes from the heart. For the last 60 years, Tibetans inside Tibet have had faith and loyalty to his holiness the Dalai Lama. That's why 152 Tibetans who have committed self-immolation have two slogans: restore freedom for Tibetans, and return his holiness the Dalai Lama to Tibet. This is a third generation of Tibetans still asking for the return of his holiness the Dalai Lama to Tibet.

At the same time, as for his holiness the Dalai Lama's vision, in 2001, he separated church and state and delegated all his political authority to elected leadership, which happened to be me and the Parliament at that time. We also have two tracks. There's a spiritual track and the democratic track. Among sixty million refugees and members of the diaspora around the world, perhaps Tibetan democracy is a role model. It's a well-practised implemented democracy that you can see. That's what we are practising.

Perhaps on this issue of reincarnation.... The U.S. Senate recently passed a unanimous resolution saying the reincarnation is the business of the Tibetan people; the next Dalai Lama will be recognized by the Dalai Lama and no one else; and the Chinese government has no role whatsoever.

If there was a similar resolution by this committee and perhaps, ideally, by the Canadian Parliament saying that spirituality is a matter of the Tibetan people and reincarnation of the Dalai Lama should be decided by the Dalai Lama, that would be a fair resolution. If that happened, it would be very good.

Our democracy is a genuine democracy. There is no Tibetan characteristic; it's a universal characteristic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Dr. Sangay.

With that, I'm going to wrap it up today. I appreciate my colleagues letting us go over time today. I think it was well worth it to listen not only to the executive but also to the members of Parliament who are here. I have to admit it's the most polite group of parliamentarians I've ever met.

We should take note of that, colleagues, as we work our way through.

Thank you. It's been very useful. This committee will take the information we received today from you as witnesses, and a report will be forthcoming. We very much appreciate this opportunity to share dialogue with you.

Colleagues, thank you very much. See you on Thursday.

The meeting is adjourned.