Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2018

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Then I'll leave it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

You're going to leave it there. Okay.

We'll move to MP Duncan, please.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I want to thank both of you. Obviously, you have many years of solid experience.

I'm hoping you are going to give us your written briefs, because it was hard to follow. There was so much depth there. I really want to thank you.

Ms. Stigant, I noted that you mentioned the Red Sea forum. Our own Library of Parliament, which does research for the committees, pointed out that there are over a million Somalian refugees in the Horn of Africa and Yemen.

Given what's going on in Yemen right now, can you speak to what impact that has on also resolving issues in Somalia?

[Susan Stigant]

That's a great question. They're very interconnected. If you look at a map, normally people would think that Yemen and Saudi Arabia are closer together, but in fact geographically Addis and Yemen are more closely geographically aligned, as well as Somalia.

There are a few levels of dynamics. One is that, because of the conflict in Yemen and the alliances that have been created, we see that the alliances and the divisions are actually being reflected in the way the gulf and Middle East countries interact in the Horn of Africa. I don't want you to assume that those are malicious intents. I think there have been some very positive things. The United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia were very catalytic in terms of the Ethiopia-Eritrea agreement that was just reached. If they're not calibrated, in a way, it really does risk further dividing and complicating some of those issues.

In terms of the Somalia-Yemen question, there's a question that probably Georgette can speak to more appropriately, on some of the human rights issues. There have been concerns about the returns of former fighters, and the perception of returns of former fighters and how that can be appropriately managed. I think it's an area that actually needs more work.

What we find in the U.S. government is that this issue falls between the seams of those who focus on Africa and those who focus on the near east, so we've been doing some work to try to see how we could bridge that across those bureaucratic divides. I think that's the same in the United Nations' system, and I suspect it's the same in the Canadian system as well.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, I note that both the OECD and Fund for Peace put Yemen ahead of several of these other African countries as to the fragility of states, to add to your additional work that you do.

Ms. Gagnon, I really appreciate all that you've provided. Overriding all the issues that you've raised, are you suggesting that Canada could contribute more to UN initiatives, or are you also, or instead, suggesting that Canadian aid could perhaps target? For example, someone I know who just retired as a prosecutor in British Columbia is being sent by the UN to Myanmar to work for the prosecutors to try to train them on how you deal with human rights violations in the courts.

[Georgette Gagnon]

Don't get me started on that.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would welcome what exactly it is that you're suggesting Canada might do in the role we play in perhaps focusing more or specific directed aid in those particular countries.

[Georgette Gagnon]

I wasn't suggesting necessarily that Canada just increase support to various UN agencies. I was suggesting more targeted support for particular types of efforts, whether it goes to civil society, for example, or whether it's funded through a UN agency or other multilateral-type structures. I was looking at it more as sort of themes or types of work that I think Canada should support through whatever way is appropriate. Of course, I would always want more money for the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. I'd be letting down my job if I didn't ask for that.

I think it really depends on the type of work and what type of funding mechanism is the best way to actually get a change in policy and practice.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Do you actually see hope in aid working with the judicial process? Are they free enough from the government in those countries that it actually could have an impact?

[Georgette Gagnon]

Again, I think it depends on which country and which region and which state and which court, because you will always find allies. In the DRC, there's actually been some success with the mobile courts on different types of prosecutions of military, of political. That effort I think slowly is gaining ground.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I think there might have been earlier witnesses talking about freedom of journalism. Is there also a need for getting the message out more, where good actions are taken, and letting the populace know that in fact people are intervening and there's—

[Georgette Gagnon]

Absolutely. That's why I spoke about the crucial role of protecting civic and democratic space, which is press freedom, journalists and human rights defenders who are increasingly being targeted and clamped down on in all of these three countries because they're going after their government, which they should do.

We do think there's a lot more support for those types of groups and those efforts needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

We are going to finish off with MP Baylis, please.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to follow up on what Ms. Duncan also asked Madam Gagnon concerning impunity.

You spoke about lack of accountability and impunity and how that has a knock-on effect of “If I can get away with it, what's to stop me?”

What would be the key aspects that you would seek to drive more accountability—you talked about documentation and that—so that even if we can't deal with a perpetrator right now, we establish that they will be dealt with?

[Georgette Gagnon]

That's one purpose of documenting and having a record, and of course bringing a profile to the situation.

In many of our recent reports on South Sudan, the perpetrators have been named right in the report.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That's at the beginning, where you're starting to say, this person's doing this, and then—

[Georgette Gagnon]

Exactly, it's saying, this commander, in this area, ordered this.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Sooner or later that commander's going to have to be dealt with.

[Georgette Gagnon]

That's the aim. That may be via a court system, or that may be via sanctions or other different types of accountability. It doesn't just have to be through the judicial process.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

This is the UN that's doing this.

[Georgette Gagnon]

We are the ones who together with.... There are local groups that are also documenting, but you may know that there's a commission on South Sudan that operates out of the UN Human Rights Council and it produced quite a groundbreaking report earlier that really highlighted clearly which military and political leaders were responsible for which crimes.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Is this something new, this naming and documenting in this manner?

[Georgette Gagnon]

Not particularly, but sometimes in the work that we've done the names are in a confidential annex. It was felt by the UN leadership and member states in South Sudan that naming was very important and could lead to some changes. My understanding is that some military leaders were removed. Others, of course, were not.

Again, that's all a question of political will and then whether the influencers are going to take to task in some form those who are letting these guys keep doing what they're doing.