Evidence of meeting #131 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chair  Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)
Christian Lamarre  Senior Programme Officer, United Nations Secretariat, United Nations Democracy Fund
Robert Greenhill  Executive Chairman, Global Canada, As an Individual
Paul LaRose-Edwards  Executive Director, CANADEM (Canada's Civilian Reserve)
Jean-Paul Ruszkowski  President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre
Maureen Boyd  Chair, Board of Directors, Parliamentary Centre

8:45 a.m.

The Chair Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

Good morning, everyone.

I will call to order this meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

This will be the final meeting on our study of Canada's support for international democratic development.

We have two panels this morning.

In the first panel, I want to welcome Christian Lamarre, senior program officer, from the United Nations Secretariat of the United Nations Democracy Fund.

We also have, from Global Canada, executive chairman Robert Greenhill.

Thank you for being here.

8:45 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Gentlemen, I will ask each of you to give around 10 minutes' worth of remarks. Then we'll open it up to members who I'm sure will have lots of questions for you.

Mr. Lamarre, we will start with you, please.

8:45 a.m.

Christian Lamarre Senior Programme Officer, United Nations Secretariat, United Nations Democracy Fund

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members.

It is an honour for the UN Democracy Fund and for me as a Canadian to be here and to thank Canada for being a donor to UNDEF.

I will make my presentation in English, but I can answer questions in French also.

In the decade-plus since this committee's 2007 report, UNDEF has garnered rich experience relevant to the call for an arm's-length Canada foundation for international democratic development.

In order to keep this presentation brief, I am sacrificing details and examples, but we stand ready to provide further information during the questions session and subsequently.

UNDEF was privileged a few years back to assist the then-nascent European Instrument for Democracy and Human Rights. It would be an honour to be of similar service to Canada.

Over the past 12 years, UNDEF has helped to design, fund and generate more than 750 projects in more than 120 countries. Our two-year grants amount to between $100,000 and $300,000 U.S. each, and they support partners in countries at various stages of democratization.

UNDEF's work is funded entirely by voluntary contributions. In addition to Canada, we count 40-plus donor countries. Many of these are middle- and low-income countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Their support sustains a staff of seven people at UN headquarters. We're a team of seven people. That's it. We have no field offices of our own. We minimize our staff and operational budget by leveraging the extensive presence and infrastructure of the United Nations and other partners. We help with assessing the viability of applicants in some cases, or monitoring project milestones.

We often find ourselves at the forefront of grassroots struggles against rising authoritarianism and against the closing of space for civil society, yet our experience shows that even in challenging environments, entry points for democratic development can be found.

A government wary of outside involvement in areas deemed political will, nevertheless, consent to a capacity-building project in what is thought of as the social sphere, let's say a project aimed at improving access to local infrastructure and services for people with disabilities or those with HIV. Another example might be a project aimed at stimulating youth involvement in local environmental stewardship. I can give examples during the question period.

While the immediate aim, that is, to meet a community need, is politically neutral, participants come away with skills and capacities they can bring to bear in asserting other rights and in holding duty bearers to account, and therefore to help build a democratic culture.

This is why UNDEF's thematic areas range from more narrowly political ones, like support for electoral processes, the rule of law and human rights, to more foundational ones, like youth engagement, gender equality, community activism, and strengthening civil society interaction with government.

When I served in peacekeeping with the UN stabilization mission in Mali, I saw just how difficult—impossible, really—it was for vulnerable communities to assert their rights and interests where civil society is weak and disorganized. Drawing on those lessons, UNDEF has sought and supported projects that advance freedom of information and speech, and that enable Malian civil society to engage the defence and security sector.

In such challenging environments, and everywhere we work, local partnerships are absolutely critical. The vast majority of UNDEF funds go to local civil society organizations, small community groups often passed over by others in favour of larger, better-known entities practised in the administrative business of managing international projects.

By providing advice and mentoring, and by facilitating the exchange of lessons learned among grantees and partners, UNDEF strives to ensure that applicants will have the technical capacity to implement the project they are proposing. We do this because such organizations can make the most of relatively small sums of money, and because for change to be durable, it has to be locally driven. Put another way, we need to invest in the ability of local people to assert their rights and improve their well-being long after our involvement has ended.

I saw this for myself when serving with the UN Development Programme in Afghanistan, where many international actors merely subcontracted to intermediary NGOs rather than working with community groups and leaders who were addressing locally identified needs and priorities.

Of course, UNDEF also works with international NGOs, including Canada's own Journalists for Human Rights, which has done groundbreaking work in South Sudan and Syria and now is a partner in Mali, but UNDEF goes beyond operational collaboration with international civil society organizations. We include them in our governance structures where they serve alongside donor and recipient member states, eminent individuals and UN agencies. Because of this diversity of donors, advisers and governance partners, and because being a largely autonomous member of the UN family gives us multilateral bona fides, UNDEF often has an edge in situations where bilateral interests might be regarded with suspicion.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, much has been said about the difficult times in which we find ourselves and the challenges confronting the democratic experiment. I hope my remarks on behalf of the UN Democracy Fund will prove useful to you. I look forward to trying to answer your questions today, and we at UNDEF will be honoured to answer any questions you might have subsequently.

Thank you for this opportunity to be of service. Merci beaucoup.

8:50 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much.

Mr. Greenhill, please proceed.

8:55 a.m.

Robert Greenhill Executive Chairman, Global Canada, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

I feel very honoured to be here with you today.

On behalf of the international community, I'd like to thank you for your clarity of insight to be looking at this issue today, because if this report that you're reviewing was important in 2007, it's arguably absolutely critical today. If history has taught us one thing, it's that authoritarians who attack the rule of law at home are more inclined to undermine the rule of law abroad. This is not just a human rights and a diplomatic issue; this is a rule of law and international security issue.

I was president of CIDA when the original report came out in 2007, and then spent many years at the World Economic Forum where I was able to observe first-hand the decline of democratic governance around the world, and speak privately with literally hundreds of people from different stakeholder groups in those countries.

Today, I'd like to share my perspectives in three areas: first, why is this deterioration taking place; second, what actions could Canada take; and third, what can this committee do in a unique way to ensure that this time their recommendations lead to real impact.

First, why is this occurring? Many of the people who came before you have underlined the role of almost an “authoritarians are us” club, sharing best practices on how to dismantle systems of rule of law in their various countries. An important question is why those authoritarians are there in the first place. In the vast majority of cases they were elected, and often they were elected through processes that were reasonably transparent, so it wasn't the elections; it's what happened after the elections that is most disconcerting.

To understand why so many authoritarians have been elected, even in countries that had a certain degree of democratic consolidation, it's important to acknowledge that there is a wave of democratic disenchantment or disillusion among citizens in various countries around the world. People who rejected authoritarianism in the 1970s and 1980s, such as in Latin America, end up finding themselves disenchanted with the reality of what democracy does or does not deliver.

Three areas come up in many surveys. First is deep, pervasive corruption. Unlike other indicators that tend to get better as countries get richer—like poverty or health care issues—corruption often gets worse as there are more rent-seeking opportunities. Second, there is crime and lack of security in cases where the police are the predators rather than the protectors, and there's no justice. Third is weak institutions, systems that do not constrain leadership and do not deliver services, hope, prosperity and opportunity. Where the world is not just, it's not fair.

Polls in Latin America have shown that dissatisfaction with democracy has increased from 51% in 2009 to a stunning 71% recently. More than half of Latin Americans still believe in the concept of democracy even though the support for that has dropped by 13%. But the overwhelming majority right now are saying, “We believe in this, but we're not seeing it.”

Let me underline once again the incredibly important role of corruption as a corrosive element on democratic systems. Transparency International came out with a key report last year which concluded that as long as corruption continues to go largely unchecked, democracy is under threat around the world. Patricia Moreira noted, “Corruption chips away at democracy to produce a vicious cycle, where corruption undermines democratic institutions and, in turn, weak institutions are less able to control corruption”.

I'd humbly suggest if your report does not address the need for a concerted push against corruption, we will not be providing an up-to-date perspective on what we need to do to enhance democratic promotion and resilience around the world.

More broadly, if we look at these issues of corruption and crime and hypocrisy, if we don't put more emphasis on the governance part of democratic governance, we may lose the democratic part. I think that is the key learning of the last decade. The importance of governance has been underlined more recently by a World Bank development report in 2017 that focused on governance and the law. It was a breakthrough with sustainable development goals in 2015 when, for the first time, STG 16 notes peace, justice and strong institutions as critical to development. There is an international recognition of this gap. The challenge is that there is no systematic filling of this gap with capability and support.

Bilateral development agencies, if anything, have reduced their support for democratic governance over the last decade, for two reasons.

One is the unintended consequence of the understandable focus on short-term, concrete deliverables—showing results. You can show how many babies you've vaccinated and you can show how many children you've put in school. You can't show in an electoral cycle the impact you've had in building an effective public sector, putting in place checks and balances, or helping to strengthen a generation of public prosecutors in Latin America, and so it tends to get less attention.

The second reason is that many of these countries have what is called “graduated”. How development works is that it appropriately focuses on those most in need in the low-income countries. Just to remind ourselves: you move to lower-income countries at less than $1,000 per capita; then you graduate from the World Bank's IDA program for subsidies at about $1,145; then, by $2,000 per capita, there is very little development support, which makes sense, in that countries can support their own education or health care.

When we're looking at issues around supporting freedom of the press, human rights, civil society and institution building; when we look at some of the countries that have had challenges or opportunities—Ukraine, Tunisia, the Philippines, South Africa, Brazil, Chile, Russia, Malaysia, Turkey, Hungary—we see that these countries are all outside the box of traditional development.

So you have a situation where, in Canada, of the $5 billion a year we spend on development, very little of it can be programmed to meet moments of opportunity in Tunisia. In South Africa, where there's a special commission looking at state capture, and there's a real need and an appetite for them to get international support on reinforcing their institutions, it's outside the box. We've boxed ourselves in by defining the need for support based on per capita income. It was understandable in the past, but it's at odds with the learnings of the last decade.

A second structural challenge is that there is no central multilateral organization dealing with this. UNDP has been playing an important role, but it's not its central focus. There's no World Health Organization for good governance. There's no place the old president of Malaysia could call to say he wanted to get the best international capabilities to help deal with an outbreak of corruption. Who does he call? If it's an outbreak of disease, you call the WHO. Who do you call? There is no central organization on this critical issue.

There is a global structural challenge. In fact, it's like the situation facing the international community in the 1990s with infectious diseases. With HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria there was no sufficient funding, structure or strategy, and there was a whole set of new initiatives, including the Global Fund, GAVI and others to deal with that. That's the situation we're in today with this infectious disease of authoritarianism.

What should we do? Canada can play a leadership role at this point. First of all, we have huge credibility. The Freedom House report that talked about the rise of authoritarianism also noted that Canada has the highest rating for freedom in the G7. We also have, by various other criteria, a view in the international population that we are one of the most benevolent countries, in terms of actually engaging to do good. We have credibility, capability and self-interest in terms of trying to play a leadership role on this critical issue.

What can we do? First, before talking about new institutions, we can shift how we're doing our existing development from an I-shape to an L. This would mean that although the vast majority of our aid goes to the poorest countries we also recognize the underlying foundational support for democratic governance and the need to build explicitly into our policies the ability to continue to support the democratic governance of countries as they graduate, as will Vietnam or Bangladesh in the next few years, from our traditional aid. This would recognize the need to keep those governance engagements.

Second, when there are moments of opportunity, as in Tunisia, Malaysia or other places, we can engage in a meaningful way for an extended period of time.

This shift from an I to an L—you can call it L for liberty, after the underlying freedom that comes from doing this—actually seems simple. It would be pioneering in developing the role we could play. That's the first recommendation I would make.

The second is that there are unique Canadian assets for us to deploy.

The Canada foundation for international democratic development was a good suggestion in 2007. I think it's an essential recommendation today and I hope this committee supports it, not to copy or compete with the NDIs and the Westminster Foundation, but to complement and complete them.

We can actually go beyond that. We have a set of unique Canadian assets we can deploy more fully. I call it the justice corps, but it really is doing three things under that justice corps recommendation.

The first is to take the Canadian police arrangement, which is a unique institution that allows us to deploy some 200 RCMP provincial and municipal officers into fragile states and conflict situations around the world. It's made a huge contribution. We should increase that to 500 per year and we should be using it to help build the rule of law not just in the fragile states, but in the consolidating democracies. We should complement it by leveraging the assets of our justice department and our highly respected judges, to help build justice systems around the world. We should also provide for all the clerks of superior and supreme courts—our best and brightest young people—the opportunity to spend a year or two abroad, immediately after their clerkships, working with justice institutions around the world.

Through that, we could actually deploy unique Canadian capabilities on this rule of law issue. Those are ways we could deploy unique Canadian assets.

The third element is that we can create that global hub for SDG 16, for peace, justice and strong institutions. In the 1970s, we created the global hub for research and science that was applied to development with the IDRC, with the first chair, Lester B. Pearson. We need an IDRC for good governance. This is actually mobilizing the best thinking around the world on this from a Canadian hub.

My recommendation is that we set up an international centre for peace, justice and strong institutions, based in Ottawa, and maybe housed within the IDRC or with a similar leadership structure. One of the elements we should do is, every year, in the week before the United Nations General Assembly, when heads of state are travelling to this part of the world, they should stop in Ottawa first because every year there should be a global conference on key issues of justice and the rule of law.

Let's talk about anti-corruption. Let's talk about indigenous governance. Let's talk about reform of the police. Then we are shaping the agenda every year the week before the United Nations General Assembly and we're putting a maple leaf flag on this important issue.

Those would be the set of recommendations. They're bold, but I think they're timely and they're doable.

The challenge is making it happen because—

9:05 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Greenhill, we're over time, by about two minutes now. If I could just get you to deliver those and then we'll open it up and explore them more in the questions.

9:05 a.m.

Executive Chairman, Global Canada, As an Individual

Robert Greenhill

Thank you.

In terms of how to make it happen, it is clear that the key recommendations from the report of 2007 weren't adopted. Key institutional support that existed at that time has been dismantled. There is a very partisan period we're about to enter into with the elections. This committee can play a unique role in showing that partisanship ends at the border on this critical issue.

There are three recommendations. The first is to work to come up with a unanimous set of recommendations, unlike the last time, for Canada's commitment to international democracy promotion. The second is to ask every party to endorse it and include it in their election platform. Every party would say, “We endorse these recommendations and if elected, we commit to implement them in the first two years of our mandate, working with other parties and Canadian civil society.” Period. Every party.

The standing committee should agree to look at the implementation of this six months after the next election, and to preplan a follow-up for one year and two years after that.

With those sets of recommendations, I believe you'll have a chance at not just having some very important recommendations, but some very consequential impact.

Thank you very much.

9:05 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much.

Thank you both for your testimony.

We'll move right into questions and we'll start with MP Aboultaif, please.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Good morning, Mr. Lamarre and Mr. Greenhill. Thank you for appearing before committee today. It's quite refreshing to hear your thoughts this morning.

The first question is for Mr. Lamarre.

In 2019, your organization invited applicants to submit applications for a wide range of projects under the democratic development umbrella. I believe that you always need those collaborative efforts to get the best out of these programs. If you were to choose among the programs, which one do you think you'll focus the most on in order to get the best results?

9:10 a.m.

Senior Programme Officer, United Nations Secretariat, United Nations Democracy Fund

Christian Lamarre

Interestingly enough, we don't get to choose. At the pre-selection stage, we hire external assessors to go over the 2,300 applications for a grant. Afterwards, we have resident coordinators. The resident coordinator system is a network of UN senior leadership in almost every state in the world. Through them, we get feedback as well on those applicants. We also have a program consultative group made of headquarter UN entities that go over the applications and the project proposals.

This entire consultation process shrinks the number to about 50 projects that we can fund because we have a budget of about $9 million a year. Then this is approved by our consultative board. We don't get to choose, in terms of the secretariat. We are not the ones deciding that there's going to be a priority in that country or we will select this exact project in that country. This has all been driven, based on the best application. There have been years when we have said, “Okay, this year we'll welcome, as a priority, youth engagement demands or electoral processes-based demands“.

This year was actually open to all. We never looked only at one thematic. As such, in every one of our project proposals, there has to be a part about gender balance or gender equality. Every project proposal also needs to assert how they are helping vulnerable communities.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

That leads me to my second question. We need to insert elements like gender, youth engagement and all of that. We know all of these will help to enhance democracy in one way or the other.

The main question will always remain: How do you measure your success? That evaluation process is most needed, in order to be able to evaluate.... I'm a great believer in doing the best you can and becoming involved in something, so that you can provide the best result. Those funds don't come around all the time. If they come to be helpful, we need to make sure the measures are there and the result is there.

Although, when we are measuring democracy, as you guys mentioned at the beginning, it's very hard to precisely measure the result. At least maybe one of the best outcomes we should get out of this is to be able to get some benchmarks over what we need to achieve out of this and how we can know that we are achieving, in order to be able to correct our efforts and to maybe focus our efforts better.

Can you brief us on the rules or methods of evaluation that you use?

9:10 a.m.

Senior Programme Officer, United Nations Secretariat, United Nations Democracy Fund

Christian Lamarre

Benchmarks or performance indicators are enshrined in our project document. For each project, there is a project document, which acts as a contract, binding the implementing agency, the local NGO or a local civil society organization, with UNDEF.

During the project life cycle, there are moments when we do evaluate. We call this a milestone monitoring mission. We set milestones in the time cycle of the projects, so we can go and observe how they do things, to see if it works out and to get the feedback from participants directly as well.

At the end of the project, there are audits and narrative reporting as well, but there is also sometimes—not always and I'll tell you why—a full-fledged project evaluation. We don't have project evaluations for all our projects because this is costly and we're working on a limited budget. We did this in the past. We had to gather a critical mass of project evaluations to really understand the results in the field, to see what was happening. We did this a few years ago. It was at the demand of our donors and our board. We evaluated some 90 projects a few years ago. Nowadays, we do 10 a year out of 50 proposals that are funded, so about 20%, which gives us a good measure of achievements and sometimes things that we need to correct along the way as well.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Ziad Aboultaif Conservative Edmonton Manning, AB

Mr. Greenhill, I echo your call to shift the focus toward enhancing, encouraging or working on democracy further and further, because I believe that if Canada is number one in the world in that area, and proudly, that gives us an opportunity to play a meaningful role.

How far should we go? You also mentioned some dollar numbers in terms of what we have and what we should have. How much further do you think should we go, and which areas of interest or focus should we have?

9:15 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Greenhill, could I ask you to give a relatively short answer to that? Maybe we can come back to it in a subsequent question.

9:15 a.m.

Executive Chairman, Global Canada, As an Individual

Robert Greenhill

Very briefly, I would focus on the key governance institution building, the rule of law, justice and internal checks and balances. The cost of what's being proposed is bold, but it's less than 1% of what we spend on development, defence and diplomacy today.

9:15 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

Thank you very much.

MP Vandenbeld, please.

February 28th, 2019 / 9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you. I'll give the first minute to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Ms. Vandenbeld.

Very quickly, thank you for that excellent presentation, Mr. Greenhill.

You've pushed us to think outside the box, but one of the items that you did not touch on is another unique characteristic of Canada, which is our multicultural nature. You talked about, for instance, sending judges or police officers. We have people who speak the languages and understand the cultures. It's something that we have and that other countries don't, so it further enhances this potential leadership role. I believe that we can unanimously agree to some of the recommendations that you've made.

We have a parliamentary internship program here where we bring young Ukrainians to Canada. It has been running for 25 years and has been hugely successful. Over 200 of the program's graduates are now at various levels of government in Ukraine. Often we rely on them. They're agents of democracy within that country.

What are your thoughts on Parliament perhaps taking on a project of that sort and targeting countries undergoing an evolution in their democratic development?

9:15 a.m.

Executive Chairman, Global Canada, As an Individual

Robert Greenhill

I think the specific program you're referring to is an excellent one and definitely could be applied to a limited number of other countries where we have a real role to play.

Ukraine's a wonderful exception to the rule of our thinking inside the box. Because of the extraordinary engagement of the Ukrainian-Canadian community, governments, including when I was at CIDA and elsewhere, continued to engage with Ukraine even though it fell outside of the dollars per capita, because we all understood that there was work to be done on governance. It's a great example of the kind of thing we should be doing more broadly. If we were doing in Tunisia and other places what we've been doing with Ukraine, we'd be making a huge contribution.

The point you made, sir, on the quality of our police officers and justice officials is very strong; they have linguistic, cultural and contextual understanding. In fact, on the issue of evaluations, when the Canadian policing arrangement was evaluated a couple of years ago, the evaluators said that Canada is one of the “few countries which deploys serving police officers, is a leader in both civilian policing and Security Sector Reform,” and they particularly noted how people in those countries appreciated the cultural sensitivities and linguistic capabilities of our police officers. That's something that we're just going to get stronger at, which is why the idea of focusing on that is a powerful one.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I want to thank you very much, Mr. Greenhill, for some very fresh ideas, and also ideas on how we make sure that this happens this time. For 20 years, there have been various incarnations of this, not just the 2007 report. I think there's a lot of political will for that, but you've given us a bit of a blueprint and framework, so I thank you for that.

Mr. Lamarre, I managed a project that was funded by UNDEF on women in politics where resident coordinators were placed on each continent. I thank you for that. There's one thing I wanted to specifically ask you about because you have that global perspective. It's on project-based funding.

What are the limitations if it becomes a funding mechanism that's project to project? Is there a possibility of having something that maybe cross-fertilizes knowledge, allows for knowledge transfer and knowledge creation, and then becomes sort of a clearinghouse for these lessons learned? How can we transfer this, not just from project to project but also when those opportunities arise and globally, not just in terms of what Canada is doing but trying to become a clearinghouse for some of the things that are happening globally? What would be the danger if it's something that is just project-driven or “funding to” as opposed to something that has that over-arching mechanism?

I'll let you speak first, Mr. Lamarre, and then I'll go to Mr. Greenhill.

9:20 a.m.

Senior Programme Officer, United Nations Secretariat, United Nations Democracy Fund

Christian Lamarre

Thank you.

I wouldn't see the project-based way of doing things as a limitation. We do it this way because we're a fund. Other UN entities have different programs and projects. On our end, though, we've managed over the past 10 years to gather those experiences and we've learned a lot of lessons.

For one thing, on our websites we have developed a system whereby we can consult on lessons learned for different projects. We can make a search by thematics and by countries. This is something we've done.

We also have recurring funding. In some cases we will give a second grant to an organization. Our board decided to go this way a few years ago in order to frame better a situation and give it some longevity as well.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I want to get a bit of policy from Mr. Greenhill.

9:20 a.m.

Executive Chairman, Global Canada, As an Individual

Robert Greenhill

I think you raise a critical point. The issue is, how do we collectively become wise about how to make democratic governance work and how do we build more resilient democracies to push back and build immunities against the infection of authoritarianism? Doing so needs a central organization. The World Health Organization does it on infectious diseases. We don't have one yet. That's why I was suggesting we need an SDG 16 institute or this IDRC for good governance, because Canada should help build a global gathering point for this. If not, we'll do a lot of interesting one-off elements, but there's no place for a critical mass today.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Mr. Michael Levitt (York Centre, Lib.)

The Chair

MP Duncan.