Here I agree with the foreign minister that they need to be complementary, such that each one fills a different role. I think Finland and Sweden are good examples of the way this can work well. Both are EU members but not NATO members, and yet there's very good co-operation. I think we have to be flexible. We have to allow for both.
Definitely, when it come to the Eastern Partnership countries or the Balkan countries, you can't force them into a mould. One thing we're pushing with the eastern partnership is this differentiation: working with each country and providing them as much support as they want. Belarus doesn't want to join the EU yet, but they want to maintain contacts; they want to be in touch with us. Georgia would love to join both, but it looks as though NATO is out of the question for a while. Even with Serbia, anything that would bring Serbia closer to the EU I think is in our interests, and maybe NATO isn't necessary for them in the future.
As far as I can see, further NATO expansion for the time being doesn't look like a reality. If you talk to the Swedes, if it were just up to the politicians, they would join. The public hasn't totally come around, although the polls show that it's moving in that direction. Maybe it isn't necessary, however, because it could be looked upon as a provocation to Russia.
I remember, over the Ukraine issue, that it always angered me when people said that Russia moved in on Ukraine because they were going to join NATO. That was nonsense. That wasn't the issue. It was the EU, but it wasn't NATO. I don't think anyone in NATO is looking at Ukraine in the near future as a possibility, long-term, perhaps, if a lot changes.
We're among the countries pushing for greater EU-NATO co-operation. We have to work out where we can co-operate. StratCom is a good example, in which co-operation works very well.
In terms of military purchases, perhaps Europe needs to work together. We're looking at more combined joint purchases. It's not easy. Even in the Baltic states it's been a 20-year project to try to get the three Baltic states to buy equipment together. I think it can work, and you don't have to be a NATO member to do it.
I think both organizations have to coexist, but their functions have to be clearly defined as to which does what, and they have to co-operate at the top level and also at lower levels.