Foreign Affairs Committee on May 31st, 2018

[Marc-André Fredette]

It's a very good question. In fact, as I mentioned at the beginning, it's the sort of thing we do behind closed doors, but quite intensely and quite systematically. I'll give you a couple of illustrations.

In Somalia, I would say that the best champions and advocates of what you're saying are indeed typically those six Canadian Somali members of cabinet, because they're bringing Canadian values with them. I've heard them say, directly out of their mouths, that their experience.... One of them, for instance, worked for the City of Ottawa as a public servant for a municipal service. He's trying to bring into the construction of a civil service in Somalia some of the things he learned at the City of Ottawa in terms of client service and listening to taxpayers about the quality of public services.

We have people who come from the private sector in the Canadian Somali community who are bringing with them also a more pragmatic results-oriented approach. Many of them are certainly sharing with us the fact that inside the cabinet of this emerging new government in Somalia they are promoting exactly these sorts of values. A good counter on the clan-based system is in fact what they're working on right now, quite courageously and, let's face it, with some difficulty, to indeed move away from this clan-based system to get to one person, one vote. That's now at least agreed on in principle.

The way they're hoping to go there is to use a combination of, in some ways, their own interpretations or adaptations of what we call federalism. It will never be something we can transpose directly, but I can tell you that they have a million questions for us. Their Minister of Planning came to see me, for instance, right here in Ottawa in my office. I'm an economist by training. He was asking me questions about basic macroeconomic management. He was asking questions about how to work out a system for political parties that indeed represent policies, values, and approaches. Sometimes they're also kind of regional, but not necessarily clan- or tribal-based.

A lot of what you're saying is happening. We're doing a lot of facilitation and encouragement on that, but in Somalia, for instance, it is so sensitive that if someone who looks like me, with a Canada flag pin on my jacket, were to walk into that conversation, we could well ruin the sauce, which is why we work behind the scenes.

[Raj Saini, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

This is not my opinion, but it's something that I think is an interesting idea. A lot of African scholars have suggested that, because of some of the boundaries of certain countries, certain tribes were included or not included. Maybe one way to make certain areas more peaceful is to change the borders so that certain clans or certain tribes are included, people who had been disenfranchised in another country one way or the other. Is that a potential idea?

If you look at clan violence, and you look at the borders, a lot of these borders were from 50, 75, or 100 years ago, and they were arbitrary. Maybe realign the borders. I don't know how it would work, but it's an interesting idea. Maybe the borders would be realigned to make sure that tribes or clans of the same thinking or idea would be in one part, and maybe clans or tribes that should have been somewhere else could be readjusted somewhere else.

[Marc-André Fredette]

I'll refer you to the colonizers of Europe who created that map.

Quite seriously, it's something that we are trying to work on, but to do that sort of thing, you have to work locally, very locally. In South Sudan, for instance, a horrible place on this planet, we're working locally—I mentioned churches earlier, for instance—with churches and women's groups to get people of different clans or other self-identification to learn how to share natural resources, for instance, or to jointly come to the training that we provide, that we subsidize, that we finance through our organizations. Sometimes being side by side and learning things together will improve all of their well-being. You also unite in a peace conference, but you create a foundation that is part of it.

We especially focus on youth as well, because let's face it, the countries we're talking about are essentially led by male gerontocracies. By working increasingly, as we are, with young people, we are also trying to work at a new start, in effect, that will go in that direction, but it's going to take a lot of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you, Mr. Saini.

We'll go to Mr. Genuis, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's an honour to be here today. I'm going to ask just a couple of specific questions about our approach to development assistance, and then I'll hand it over to Mr. O'Toole.

In terms of the discussion about feminist international development assistance, I want to ask if Canada ever funds medical procedures or other activities that are illegal in the country where they're taking place.

[Marc-André Fredette]

No.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Does the Government of Canada fund organizations that themselves perform procedures that are illegal in a particular country to do other projects?

[Marc-André Fredette]

I'm not sure I understand. Could you restate that?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, so organization X performs illegal abortions in certain countries, let's say. Would the Government of Canada fund organization X to do something else in that country, or would it choose not to partner with that organization as a result of the fact that they're involved in activity that's illegal in the country where it's happening?

[Marc-André Fredette]

Certainly, what I can tell you is that the way we work is, we start from the local context, including the local laws. Obviously, we are an arm of the Canadian government, so we function in a system of laws. We always respect local laws. To the extent that a project is devised in any country, in country X, if the laws say certain things are permitted and certain things are not permitted, any project designed to be implemented in that country will respect those laws. The partners that will be selected to implement these projects will have to respect those laws. That's how we work.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The partners you are engaging with, are you saying they would have to respect local laws in general, or just that they would have to respect local laws in the specific context of the project on which they are co-operating with the Government of Canada?

[Marc-André Fredette]

The way these transactions work, if you are a Canadian organization, some NGO, non-governmental organization, if you work in a country where we're going to finance a project, as the project gets examined, there are many criteria including, is it well designed, is the budget well-constructed, does it have credible results, are the results commensurate with the investment? Among these many filters, these processes ensure that we work with partners who always respect those laws.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I want to clarify that I understand. You are saying that the Government of Canada would not partner with an organization that does not respect local laws, even if the specific project does respect local laws. In the case I used of the organization X, which is doing illegal abortions in a particular country, you would choose not to partner with that organization even if the potential project for partnership is something totally unrelated.

Is that correct?

[Marc-André Fredette]

The short answer is that we would not work with an organization that is doing anything illegal in a country where we work.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Would you work with an organization that breaks local laws in a different country, if it is an international organization?

[Marc-André Fredette]

I honestly don't know how to answer that. If an organization, let's say the ABC volunteer health organization of southern Toronto wants to work with us in South Sudan in the health sector, we of course have a due diligence process about the credibility of the organization, including its financial credibility and the design of the project. As I said, there's a series of filters we do for all projects.

If with other funding of other people they have done other things somehow, I can't imagine how one would address that. I just don't understand how we would....

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

I will turn it over to Mr. O'Toole at this point.

Thanks.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

In the time we have left, with respect to the Democratic Republic of Congo, certainly its largest percentage of GDP by export is mining and resource extraction. Obviously, conflict and the various struggles for peace have seen that industry go on and off in terms of international participation, but Canada being a leader in this, could you talk about any examples of economic diplomacy in action? That was a focus of the last government, but I think it still makes sense where we see industry players combined with foreign aid assistance, trade, development, and that sort of thing.

Are there any examples from any of the countries, but the DRC in particular?

[Nicolas Simard]

Thank you for your question.

Actually, in the DRC, the Canadian embassy is very active in the area of mining. As you know, since the departments of foreign affairs, trade and development were merged, we work on those issues under a unified umbrella.

Of course, it is extremely difficult for a company to do business in the DRC because the DRC government is not only illegitimate but, unfortunately, it is also predatory. Efforts are made in the mining industry to try to divert mining resources from the public coffers or from export.

In those cases, we have to provide Canadian companies with support in order to put pressure on the ministries involved to comply with the country’s laws, and we are succeeding in that. Often, they do not even abide by their own laws. So we provide that support. At the embassy, for example, we meet with entrepreneurs and chief executives in the mining sector. They tell us which challenges they are facing in the country, what might be called the “administrative minefield”. We try to navigate through the administrative minefield together.

For example, I often go to see the minister of mines, and other ministers, such as the economic minister, to explain the situation to them. By exerting pressure in a teaching role, things generally work quite well.

[Marc-André Fredette]

If I may complement that, in South Sudan and Somalia, sadly in many ways, Canadian private sector presence either doesn't go there because they are afraid, with good reason, or when they go, we don't know about it. We do hear, certainly, that there are some people who do go, but in a private capacity. They don't register with us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Nault]

Thank you.

Ms. Duncan, please.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much. I appreciate a few more questions. I'm looking forward to the briefing if we can finally get our dates straight.

I understood in the response to some of the other questions about Somalia that some of the assistance is Canada supporting Canadian NGOs, which in turn go to the African countries to deliver aid. If that's so, I'm really happy to hear that, because there was a time when that funding was cut, when we didn't have communities working directly with communities. I've always found that is among the most valid, reliable aid because then it's not some government official or some highly paid consultant going in.

Is my understanding correct that in South Sudan some of the work that is going on is to a certain extent Canada supporting Canadian-based NGOs working directly with, for example, some of the women's organizations or women in communities in South Sudan?

[Marc-André Fredette]

We do that.

In fact, there's an entire side of our programs at Global Affairs Canada, which we call the partnerships for development innovation branch, that is exactly designed for that. Let's say you have CARE Canada or Oxfam that designs a project to work in any sector in South Sudan, involving local community partners. They will raise their own money and they will come to us to match their money.

We also have something a little more pointed. One fascinating example that I found in these difficult places to work, is the work of midwives for instance. We have worked with the Canadian Association of Midwives, for instance, where you will literally then have midwives from Kenora in northern Ontario volunteering to go deploy in places like that to then help train some of these people.

We are looking at expanding that model because it, to train midwives, is one of the things that is absolutely the best bang for your buck.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm happy to hear that because I know women in the Northwest Territories who have initiated midwifery and have really improved the situation for northern women.

You might want to be thinking about giving them an opportunity—although they are very busy in the Northwest Territories—because their circumstances and isolation in rural communities may well be very similar, as opposed to doing it in Toronto or Vancouver, or whatever.

I'm very interested in Canadian aid for good governance. I worked in Jamaica, Indonesia, and Bangladesh on environmental projects. Essentially what it was about was good governance and trying to put in place systems. Of course, you do the financial system. You do anti-corruption, but there's also actually working right down to the lower level in teaching them how you do protocols, matching up with Canadian counterparts and so forth.

I'm wondering how much of the percentage of aid that is going to Africa is actually on good governance. How do you actually run a local government? How do you engage the community in that direction?

[Marc-André Fredette]

It's a very broad question. Frankly, to be completely truthful I would have to go dig up some statistics from our master volume. But I can certainly give you a quick overview.

If you look at all international development partners who work in sub-Saharan Africa, Canada has one of the very highest percentages of the work that you're alluding to. We're working with governance at national levels, helping craft national laws. and providing technical assistance—actually, some of you may know this—to parliaments. We've worked with the parliamentary centre in a number of countries. We've also used the Canadian Auditor General model and implanted it in a number of countries including places where I've worked in my life: Ethiopia, Mali, Ghana and so on. There's a lot of that.

We also work with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities in many countries, including the dimension I mentioned earlier. You were talking about moving away from tribal and clan and so on, where taking a more geographic approach with people who are of different affiliations gives you a different approach. Looking at it from a municipal level is in many ways a lot easier. You want get the water to come clean at the end of the pipe, and you can more easily surmount things like tribal and clan and other political differences when you're talking about something like that. It's very tangible. It's very concrete. We've supported user groups and associations, for instance, for water and so on.

There are many of these things we do. I don't have the numbers for all what we do in sub-Saharan Africa, but it is considerable and it takes many forms.