Evidence of meeting #26 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira
Bruce Christie  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Sandra McCardell  Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Arctic, Middle East and Maghreb, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Bessma Momani  Professor, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
Chris Kilford  Writer on Turkish and Middle Eastern issues, As an Individual
Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 26 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 29, 2020, the committee is resuming its study of the granting of arms export permits, with a particular focus on permits granted for exports to Turkey.

We will begin the first hour with officials from Global Affairs Canada.

I would encourage all participants to mute their microphones when they're not speaking and address comments through the chair.

When you have 30 seconds left in your questioning or [Technical difficulty—Editor] I'll signal you with this piece of paper.

Interpretation is available through the globe icon on the bottom of your screens.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. We have Bruce Christie, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister…

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Chair, if I may, I have a motion I'd like to move.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Harris, we can give you the floor now. Do you anticipate a lengthy discussion? You have a time slot available to you in a few minutes.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I have a motion related to committee business. It's not related specifically to the testimony today. It is a motion following up on a previous motion with respect to the publication of documents.

I'd like to move that the—

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I am wondering how Mr. Harris got the floor, when that is not on the agenda. We're not in a business meeting.

I would like advice from the chair and also from the clerk. I know that Mr. Harris can present a motion when he has the floor. We've had an incident in this committee not that many months ago when the chair gave someone the floor when it was not their turn in the speaking order. I just want to confirm that this is indeed in order.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much for the point of order, Mr. Oliphant.

Is there discussion on the point of order?

I was trying to nudge Mr. Harris to his time slot, which will emerge shortly. He indicated that his motion is not directly relevant to the testimony of the witnesses. I'm a bit concerned about that, because it's not properly on the agenda, in that sense.

Mr. Harris, why don't we give you the floor when it's your time to speak? If you could make the motion as relevant as you possibly can to the testimony and material before us today, then I would encourage you to bring your motion at that time.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

I am speaking to the point of order, if that's the point.

The motion is related to the topic at hand and has to do with the study at hand. Under those circumstances, this motion is relevant and may be given without notice.

It has to do with the order for production of documents that we have already dealt with, since the last motion, to make public the previous documents that were presented to the committee. This is simply to reiterate that motion with respect to further documents that we've received since that time. I would like to be able to have a motion for the committee to render those documents public as well.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Harris, I was trying to encourage you to use your allocated time slot for that. I was in the process of introducing our witnesses.

Again on the point of order, Dr. Fry, please.

April 13th, 2021 / 3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

I agree with Mr. Oliphant. I think that when Mr. Harris's turn comes up, he can then—if it is related to what the business is at hand that we're dealing with today—bring up his motion. Right now, however, I think we are introducing witnesses, and that is what the order of the meeting should be following.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you, Dr. Fry.

Is there any other discussion on the point of order?

Mr. Oliphant, go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I really need clarification. I think it is unusual to accept a motion when someone doesn't have the floor. I am worried that someone has taken the floor, and that is not characteristic of Mr. Harris. I would say that it is not something I have noticed before.

I am concerned. I may be misinterpreting the rules. I would like to understand. Maybe the clerk could advise on this. I think it is unusual.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Oliphant, thank you for that point of order.

I was still in the process of determining whether Mr. Harris properly has the floor or whether we should give him the floor. I was trying to encourage him, again, to use his time allocation, which I think is six minutes in the first round. Then, if he would like to bring a motion, he most certainly is welcome to do so.

If there are no other points on this, then maybe Madam Clerk could just briefly clarify, in response to Mr. Oliphant's question, whether that is indeed the correct way to proceed. I'm inclined to conclude that Mr. Harris did not properly have the floor, because I was in the process of introducing the witnesses we have for the first hour of our time this afternoon.

3:35 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Erica Pereira

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If it is your ruling that Mr. Harris did not properly have the floor, he would be unable to move the motion at this time. However, with regard to Mr. Oliphant's other part of the question, the substantive motion, if it relates directly to the business under consideration, it does not require a notice period, so Mr. Harris would be able to move it during his six-minute time slot today.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much, Madam Clerk, and Mr. Oliphant. That's helpful.

I'm trying to be as consensus based as possible. I would encourage the committee to adopt the view that the proper way to go forward is to have Mr. Harris speak during his allocated time slot. I'm prepared to make that a ruling of the chair if that's required. Again, I encourage Mr. Harris to be as closely connected to the subject matter at hand in his motion as he says it is, and if that's the case, he's absolutely able to speak in a few minutes' time.

If that's agreeable to the committee, we would proceed with the introduction of our witnesses.

Thank you, colleagues.

I would like to welcome our first group of witnesses from Global Affairs Canada.

First, we have Bruce Christie, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations.

Then, we have Sandra McCardell, Assistant Deputy Minister, Europe, Arctic, Middle East and Maghreb.

Joining us also is Colleen Calvert, Acting Corporate Secretary and Director General, Cabinet and Parliamentary Affairs Division.

Finally, we have Andrew Turner, Acting Director, Eastern Europe and Eurasia Division, and Shalini Anand, Acting Director General, Trade and Export Controls.

Mr. Christie, as I understand it, you are going to make the presentation. You have five minutes. Please go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Bruce Christie Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to appear today to discuss Canada's export control regime.

As you're aware, the former minister of Foreign Affairs and the directors general of trade and export controls bureau as well as the European affairs bureau at Global Affairs appeared before this committee to address the issue of the suspension of certain export permits to Turkey back in October of last year. As Minister Champagne mentioned during his appearance before the committee last November, the government will take appropriate action should credible evidence be found regarding the misuse of any controlled Canadian goods or technology.

Following allegations about controlled Canadian exports being deployed in the recent conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, a review of the allegations was conducted by Global Affairs Canada in collaboration with the Department of National Defence. The review found that Canadian technology was [Technical difficulty—Editor] in Nagorno-Karabakh and other regional conflicts and that the alleged transfer of Canadian technology to a third party may have been inconsistent with the end-use assurances provided by the Government of Turkey. Therefore, the Minister of Foreign Affairs decided yesterday to cancel the suspended permits and has directed departmental officials to initiate a dialogue with Turkey to build mutual confidence and greater co-operation on export permits to ensure consistency with end-use assurances before any further permits for military goods and technologies are issued.

Canada's export controls policy with respect to Turkey will remain in place. As indicated in Minister Garneau's statement yesterday, Turkey is an important NATO ally, and permit applications related to NATO co-operation programs will be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

While the team and I will be happy to answer any questions on the review of export permits to Turkey following my presentation, I'll focus my brief remarks today on describing the process through which we assess applications for export permits, as I understand the committee had requested insight on this topic.

Canada has one of the strongest export control systems in the world, and over the last few years we have taken steps to increase the rigour and transparency of what was already a very robust system. Foremost among these steps was Canada's accession to the UN Arms Trade Treaty back in September 2019, and prior to joining the Arms Trade Treaty, or the ATT, amendments were made to Canada's Export and Import Permits Act to ensure our full compliance with the treaty.

The most significant of these amendments was the creation of a requirement to assess all permit applications for military items against their criteria outlined in the ATT. These criteria require officials to determine the risk that a proposed export can be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international, humanitarian or human rights law or be used to commit acts of terrorism, transnational organized crime or gender-based violence.

Under the law, the minister of Foreign Affairs must deny export permit applications for military items if, after considering available mitigating measures, he determines that there is a substantial risk that the export would result in any of the negative consequences referred in the ATT criteria.

Canadians rightfully expect that our military and strategic exports will not be used to commit human rights violations abroad, and at the same time we must be cognizant of the importance of the defence industry to the Canadian economy, particularly in a time of such difficult economic hardship. In fact, our non-U.S. exports of military goods alone amounted to approximately $3.7 billion in 2019. Our export controls are not meant to unnecessarily hinder international trade but rather to ensure that controlled items are exported in a manner that is consistent with our values and interests.

I'd just like to discuss very briefly the process through which the department assesses the approximately 6,000 export permit applications [Technical difficulty—Editor]. After the export permit applications are received in our system, our engineers confirm that the items are indeed controlled for export. Thereafter, the export permit applications for military and strategic items are reviewed on a case-by-case basis against the ATT criteria and the substantial risk test. For proposed exports to low-risk destinations such as like-minded allies that are party to the same multilateral export controls regimes as Canada, a permit officer will assess the application through an analysis of the destination country against the ATT criteria. If this assessment identifies no concern, the permit will be issued at the officials level.

For exports to all other destinations, or if concerns are identified for a permit to a low-risk destination, the application is sent for wide-ranging consultations. Consultation partners include geographic, human rights. international security and defence industry experts such as Global Affairs Canada, as well as our missions abroad and also the Department of National Defence and, as necessary, other government departments and agencies.

If no concerns are raised during the consultation process, the application is subject to additional management approvals to validate compliance with the review process. Thereafter, the permit application is provided to the Minister of Foreign Affairs in a weekly report for his review and consideration.

If, however, concerns are raised by consultation partners, the application will be sent to an interdepartmental committee of senior officials for review. If the committee recommends issuing the permit, the application is sent to the minister for his final review and approval. If there is no consensus, or if the committee of experts recommends denial of the permit, the application is submitted to the minister for his final decision.

As you are aware, the minister of foreign affairs also has the power under the act to suspend, amend or cancel any issued permits in light of any evidence that the items exported are being or will be used in a manner that is not aligned with Canada's foreign policy, defence and security interests.

It should also be noted that the introduction of a more rigorous assessment framework has led to delays in the processing of applications. These delays have been noticed by industry, which has been very vocal in expressing its desire for a more transparent, timely and predictable system. We are now considering how we can streamline our assessment process while maintaining the level of rigour that is required under the law and that Canadians have come to expect.

With that, Mr. Chair, I will conclude my remarks. We are happy to take your questions today.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Christie, thank you very much for your opening remarks. I thank you and your team as well for being with us.

We will now go to our first round of structured questions, of six minutes to each.

The first series goes to Mr. Diotte.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Hello. Thanks for being here, folks.

It's been alleged that the Canadian equipment used in the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict is the optical equipment for the TB2 drone. That is what we're talking about.

I'd like to find out what role the TB2 drones have played in the conflict. Also, are the Wescam sensors an essential component of the drone, or can they be readily replaced by other components?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

Mr. Chair, the review of export permits to Turkey over the period of October to December of last year determined that the Turkish UAVs, or unmanned aerial vehicles, were used in the Nagorno-Karabakh region in this part of that conflict.

Through the review of the Turkish permits that were used, there has been credible evidence brought forward that Canadian technologies were used in that conflict. Whether there are other suitable or appropriate technologies that can be fitted on Turkish drones is a question beyond my technical expertise, but I assume there are capabilities for other technologies to be used in those cases.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thanks.

What restrictions, if any, were placed on Turkey when we granted the export of the Wescam sensors?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

Mr. Chair, as part of the export permit application process, the Canadian company, working in this case with the Turkish consignee, was required as part of the export permit application to provide end-user and end use statements concerning who would receive the technology in Turkey and what the ultimate end use of the technology would be.

Throughout that process, we have been engaged with our Turkish counterparts to confirm that the Canadian sensors or cameras that were being exported to Turkey were being used for defensive and humanitarian purposes, but were not being used in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Now we know that exceptional circumstances can be granted to allow the export of military items to Turkey so how does Global Affairs Canada determine when there are exceptional circumstances that justify the issuance of an export permit?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

To take a quick step back in terms of the timeline, in October 2019 the Minister of Foreign Affairs, after Turkey's incursion into northeastern Syria, suspended the issuance of new permits to Turkey until such time that we, the department, working with our like-minded partners, could determine whether our concerns that the exports of Canadian technology being used in northeastern Syria could further destabilize the region.

Further to that review, during which time no new export permits were permitted, in April of last year the Minister of Foreign Affairs resumed the export of military items to Turkey but under new criteria under which all permit applications would be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Essentially, what came into effect in April 2020 was a presumptive denial policy. We advised Canadian exporters of military items and technology that they should assume that their permit application would be denied unless they could present exceptional circumstances, which were not limited to, but mostly based on, NATO co-operation programs. Those would be the exceptional circumstances.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Just [[Technical difficulty--Editor] how many and what items have been approved for export based on exceptional circumstances in that clause? Can you shed any light on that?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Bruce Christie

Mr. Chair, since April 2020, a small number of export permits to the region have been approved under those exceptional circumstances—certainly fewer than 20, and the vast majority of those permit applications that were approved by the minister fall into the category of permit amendment requests. In other words, a valid permit needs to be revised because the date of the permit has expired, the amount of money attached to the permit has changed or the company name has changed, or whatnot. Very few permit applications were approved during that time period. As I said, the majority of them were what we deem as permit amendment requests.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB

I have a really quick question. Can you provide any update on the allegations that Canadian equipment has been used by actors supplied by the Turkish government?