Foreign Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2021

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Mr. Diotte, I'll just say that we very much appreciate the support we already get from Canada, across party lines and from the wider public, but I would say that with the knowledge, the expertise and the resources that Canada has invested in Ukraine, your country should be a very strong voice in a conversation about Ukraine and the wider Europe, and specifically about NATO's deterrents to Russia and NATO's partnership with Ukraine.

We want people like the Operation Unifier commanders speaking in Brussels about the benefits and challenges of having Ukraine in NATO.

I can only encourage all of you to raise your voice on this issue.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Just on that—and I know others have touched on this subject—what should Canada be doing? In your view, what more can we do? Obviously we are a strong ally of yours.

I know that you know I have many Ukrainian-Canadians in my riding. What more can we do? I think Ukraine is a very popular issue in the public context. We want to build a democracy. We want to help you, and we don't want to see bad things happen with the Russians.

What more should we be doing?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

You can find some of the steps that we suggest in the final slides of the presentation that was circulated among you, but I can just mention that the renewal of Operation Unifier until 2022 is very important. Sanctions against Russia using all different avenues are very important.

We have discussed NATO, and also we want Canada to use its reputation and its status in international organizations to work with other countries to consolidate this coalition in support of Ukraine. Whether it's with the OSCE, or whether it's through platforms like the G7 or NATO, we hope your voice will be very strong.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Diotte.

Thank you, Ambassador.

We will now go to the final questioner in this round, and that's Dr. Fry for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Ambassador, thank you very much for coming and spending this length of time with us.

I was really very glad you mentioned Russia's overall militarization of the Arctic and the threat to Baltic nations. I even wonder what you think about Russia's now being a protector within Armenia. It would seem to me that Russia is trying to regain the old USSR and become a power broker in that way.

I want to know what you think of Russia having gained incursion into Armenia, saying that it is a peacemaker there.

With regard to the other question I want to ask, you talked about bringing together like-minded nations. However, Russia has a whip that it holds over a lot of nations in Europe, and that's oil and its ability to give them energy. That prevents a lot of them from probably being as aggressive as they could be.

I wonder if you want to tell us what you think the endgame is for Russia and whether Canada should be speaking up about the militarization of the Arctic, because we are an Arctic nation.

I'll let you answer, but I want to say one thing. I have been to Ukraine many times, because I am with the OSCE PA. I have seen no more beautiful city than your city of Kiev. It is the most beautiful city in the world.

For me, the issue of what Canada is doing in Ukraine goes beyond sanctions, etc. It's about helping to form a police force that believes in democracy and in the protection of peoples. It's about training the military. It's about working with gender equality and LGBT equality across Ukraine. I was there when your chief of police in Kiev had just come from being at the pride parade.

I want to congratulate you on the steps you have made, but to also ask whether you could give me the endgame for Russia, and how we can get like-minded nations to come on board to support you for NATO when they have this sword over their heads about energy and oil.

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Those are some very good questions. I'll start from the end.

There are many schools of thought on that, but I believe that Putin is not, in many ways, the source of the problems we see. In many ways, he is a reflection of the agenda of the Russian political class and he is a reflection of the state of Russian society. That means we'll probably have to deal with these aggressive politics and policy for many years—maybe for decades.

That is why we should take this very strategically and very seriously, and that's exactly why we should think thoroughly about the situation with Nord Stream 2. You have absolutely rightly pointed out that oil has always been and will be used as a way to influence some nations, including those nations in Europe that you mentioned.

Finally, with Armenia and Azerbaijan, we are watching the situation closely. I can tell you one thing: When you see Russian peacekeepers in the region, that's usually not a sign that peace is closer; usually it's a concern when you see Russian troops around. That is something that makes us follow the situation with a lot of concern.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ambassador.

We'll then go into round three.

Ms. Gallant, welcome to the committee. The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

During the winter of 2014, a forum that Mr. Ambassador Shevchenko would be very familiar with, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, was [Technical difficulty—Editor] as the Afghanistan conflict was winding down. In fact, late in the afternoon, we were being told about the peace dividends we were about to enjoy. Well, the next morning, we woke up to reports of little green men having invaded Crimea. However, unlike the Middle East conflict, the asymmetric warfare we were seeing was being conducted by a state actor.

Since the pandemic hit, we haven't been able to gather. I am really interested in knowing what new types of hybrid warfare there are, or the trends you're seeing in Ukraine since the pandemic hit.

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

We have seen a lot of hostile activities in trying to use the pandemic situation in terms of propaganda and information wars. There is one country that tries to explain that all the vaccines are bad except for the Sputnik. There are some other ways that this country is trying to undermine our government's activities to fight the pandemic.

Also, I think on the broader scale, in these last several months they disclosed many other things. One of them is the situation with the explosion in the Czech Republic. There are clear signs of Russian intelligence operations behind that. That actually has contributed to this major change of context in eastern Europe.

Overall, I'll say that we are witnessing more and more new ways in which this one country is trying to challenge the free world and the international order. This is a good reason for us to coordinate.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

With the migration from the workplace and school to home, what new or unique cyber-aggressions have Ukrainians been experiencing, if any?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

It's our everyday routine to fight cyber-attacks from the aggressor. We are following very closely the developments in other countries, including those in the west. Obviously, the situation with the Colonial Pipeline was very alarming. That is another reason for us to work harder on our intel exchange and have closer co-operation between our armed forces and our security organizations.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In what ways has Putin used artificial intelligence to sophisticate Russia's use of hybrid warfare?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

If the chair allows, I'll probably pass the floor to Colonel Siromakha on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Of course.

[Col Viktor Siromakha]

Thank you, sir.

I'm not sure whether you have seen the parade on May 9 in Moscow. Russians demonstrated for first time in their history the robot platform, Uran-9. That's a combat platform with a robot that uses artificial intelligence. They are not only using artificial intelligence for peaceful means, for instance, like on the international space station, where they used a robot with artificial intelligence. His name is Fedor. It doesn't work properly, but....

They use these platforms on wheels and they demonstrated the robot in downtown Moscow on May 9, Victory Day. They are showing the achievements of their science.

If I may just come back to the trends we were discussing just a few minutes ago, let me bring you one example of how the Russians use opportunities. For instance, remember the situation in the Suez Canal, when the merchant ship blocked the canal for a few days. It actually created chaos within world logistics support. Russians started thinking about how to propose using a northern route instead of the Suez Canal, because if ships from Asia come to Europe it takes 14 days less to come to western Europe ports that way.

I would like to tell you that the Russians already established an Arctic command in 2014. We already have 13 new military airfields and 16 deepwater ports in the Arctic.

I would say, if you are talking about trends, that's definitely the climate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Colonel Siromakha, and thank you, Mrs. Gallant.

We will now go to Mr. Baker for five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Ambassador, Mr. Diotte was speaking of the fact that many Canadians have connections to Ukraine through family, friends, businesses, etc., but I think there are other reasons Canada supports Ukraine.

Could you explain for those viewers out there who are watching—for Canadians who are watching—why it's important that Canada support Ukraine in defending its security and its territorial integrity?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Indeed, we believe that Canada is very supportive of Ukraine, not just because of this wonderful Ukrainian-Canadian community but also because Canada believes that it is in its long-term interests to have a stable democratic country, as Ukraine is struggling to be.

Today, I think many people in Canada realize that Ukraine is fighting on behalf of the whole free world. We feel we are the de facto eastern flank of NATO.

Mr. Baker, I'll use this again to reinforce my statement. If there is one region on the planet where Canada is making a huge difference right now, and is already making a huge difference, it's eastern Europe and specifically Ukraine. It's because of this very much appreciated Canadian military deployment in Ukraine, this very unique cultural connection that Canada has throughout Ukraine and the region, and this massive footprint in the field of international assistance. In the case of Ukraine, it's Canada's very deep involvement in reforming the armed forces, the national police, the intelligence community, you name it.

If you're looking for one place on the planet where Canada can make a huge difference, a huge impact, I would start with Ukraine.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador.

Ambassador, one of the areas where Canada has made a significant contribution to help Ukraine reform is in the rule of law and reforming its judiciary. I believe, and many people believe, that if Ukraine is going to attract the foreign investment it needs to strengthen its economy, to offer the prosperity that it is hoping for, and to secure its sovereignty, the rule of law has to be reinforced and corruption has to be eliminated. I know some Canadian businesses who have invested in Ukraine have struggled with this.

Could you speak to the steps Ukraine is taking to address corruption and attract foreign investment, like the investments that have been made by Canadian investors?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

Reform of the judiciary is of paramount importance. Fortunately, we do not have too many worrying situations now, but even one is one more than we should have.

It's very clear that we want to make sure that Canadian investors experience rule of law and fair judicial decisions. That is our goal. We also want to make sure that the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement is utilized full-scale. That is another reason we want to expand the Canada-Ukraine free trade agreement into services and investments.

Our intention is to make sure that, in Ukraine, we have a very friendly space and a very comfortable space for Canadian businesses to operate. We have very strong pragmatic reasons for that. It's not just about creating jobs; it's about the exchange of best practices or good technologies. This is how both nations can strongly benefit.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It's absolutely a win-win, and there's a lot of opportunity there. I completely agree with you, Ambassador.

I thank you for the work Ukraine's doing to undertake those reforms. I think those are very important.

Many members on both sides of the aisle here have spoken to some of the steps Canada has taken over the years to be supportive of Ukraine, whether through sanctions, the steps that have been taken to support Ukraine's integration into NATO, or Operation Unifier.

Canada has invested $800 million in assistance to Ukraine since 2015, if I'm not mistaken, to support Ukraine's reform efforts, and, of course, repeated statements in support of Ukraine at the G7, and internationally, that Ukraine sovereignty isn't wavering.

In 30 seconds or less, Ambassador, what has been the impact of these measures, and what more can Canada do?

[H.E. Andriy Shevchenko]

When you see Ukraine succeeding in modernizing the country, you should be aware that this is happening because of the strong support we are getting from countries like Canada.

If Canada is serious about advancing its values, its approach to the international order and to domestic things, Ukraine is the right country to apply those efforts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much, Mr. Baker and Mr. Ambassador.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Is it two and a half minutes again? I thought this was the second round, Mr. Chair.