Evidence of meeting #39 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was israel.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Troy Lulashnyk  Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Thank you very much, Mr. Lulashnyk.

We'll now go to the final questioning in this round, with Mr. Harris for six minutes.

4 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you very much.

Thank you, sir, for joining us, and thank you to all of the witnesses.

First of all, let me say at the outset that we all abhor the deaths that have taken place in recent days, the 293 deaths on both sides, 280 of whom were Palestinians and 13 of whom were Israeli citizens. That's to be condemned. This type of violence and death is to be abhorred.

I want to move to some of the structural issues and problems that gave rise to this circumstance, and also talk about Canada's role in all of this, in the sense of our own foreign policy.

I want to start by raising the concern that has been raised by Canada's failing to continue to support the United Nations resolutions that have been condemnatory of illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories for some decades now. I want to suggest that Canada ought to change this policy, but also underscore the fact that Canada stands ready, as the minister said recently, to assist when negotiations have been achieved. This is in fact providing an incentive to the status quo.

If I may, I want to quote from an individual by the name of Daniel Levy, a former negotiator with the Israeli government in the peace talks, who suggests that other roads should be taken. He was talking to the UN Security Council about a year ago after the annexation proposals were dropped, or at least stalled. He says that this was not a cause for self-congratulation. There's no reward for the avoidance of criminality, he said.

He talked about the peace process, as currently framed, as being a deeper structural problem. As it was currently framed and pursued, he says it is “a place of refuge from hard choices”, a comfort zone with a law of diminishing returns, that it has a lock-hold and has brought us to the brink of annexation and the precipice of the Palestinian Authority's financial collapse. He said it's not a question of resuming negotiations, of more of the same guarantees, further deterioration...a failure of learning, politics and imagination.

Daniel Levy further says that there's been some talk about “creating the conditions, the building blocks for future progress that can deliver equality, dignity and security for Palestinians and Israelis”, and I think that's what we all want. He also suggests that there needs to be accountability for human rights and international law. In the case, of course, that we're dealing with, the allegations against Israel, he says, “If the unlawful and peace negating policies [of Israel] continue to be met with impunity, then there should be no expectation of positive change. It's that simple. Israel pursues policies in violation of international law and...UN resolutions because it can.” He suggests that human rights and international legality should be “our guiding star”, no longer subordinated to maintaining a peace process that has so palpably failed to deliver.

I'd like you to comment on that, sir, in respect of Canada's position, which used to be strongly supportive of UN resolutions seeking to ensure that it was recognized that the occupations were illegal and looking for some change.

Why did Canada stop supporting those resolutions? Doesn't he agree that the impunity of Israel with respect to this occupation is in fact incentivizing a lack of progress in the peace talks?

4 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

Thanks very much for the comments and questions.

On the UN resolutions, we have been voting pretty much in the same way for a number of years. That is predicated on the view that there are far too many one-sided resolutions that unfairly single out Israel. Each year at the United Nations you will have 19 to 23 resolutions—depending upon the year—all of which make all kinds of commentary on Israeli behaviour, but there's no discussion of other players in those resolutions, for the most part. I think that's one of the reasons we have voted fairly consistently.

I would note that we did have a vote change on the self-determination resolution that took place in 2018, to send a message that we very strongly support the two-state solution and a comprehensive, just and lasting peace. That's on voting.

On the negotiations of a broader Middle East peace, Canada has been very active for many years on this and very active in the past several years, as well. The former U.S. administration put a lot of effort into it, with U.S. President Trump's so-called “deal of the century”. We went to the economic part of their plan to see where it was headed. One of the key problems with that plan was that it fell far below the international consensus. All the red lines related to the final status issues. There have been efforts for encouraging Middle East peace. They've just been fairly unsuccessful and unrealistic.

Moving forward, I think we really need to work together collectively to prevent these kinds of conflicts from occurring. We will do our part. We are very significant in supporting the diplomatic part of that peace and the humanitarian and development part of that peace. We very regularly work with our colleagues in the new U.S. administration, with the U.K., the EU and our partners in the region to try to get it on track.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thanks very much. We'll have to leave it there.

We'll now go to round two. Leading us off is Mr. Morantz for five minutes.

Please, go ahead.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you very much for the information you've given so far. I also want to thank you for pointing out that when it comes to UN resolutions, Israel is unfairly singled out compared to human rights issues with many other nations. I appreciate that you're making that point.

It's kind of a complicated situation when it comes to the aid that we're providing. I know the government's announced $25 million. We're providing aid into a region.... We all know we need to help Palestinian citizens in the aftermath of this latest conflict, but we're dealing with a region that is controlled, as you said, by a terrorist organization that has not had an election for 17 years.

How does Canada make sure that the aid that goes into the region isn't falling into the hands of the wrong people and isn't winding up somehow with Hamas to build more rockets, rather than getting to the Palestinian people who so desperately need this assistance?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

Thanks very much.

Indeed, this is a significant concern for us and for all partners who do work in this area. The answer is that we put in place very significant controls on all of our projects that go into the region—particularly in Gaza but in West Bank as well. We apply what is called an “enhanced due diligence” system to our funding. That has a whole series of measures. There are anti-terrorism lists and based on our funding agreements, we use those lists. We work with our partners.

In a previous capacity, I was our representative on the Global Counterterrorism Forum, so I know a little bit about this part.

We supplement these lists and assessments with practical program implementation measures like screening, oversight, partners, site visits and verifications. We have teams in Ramallah that will go into Gaza and make sure the money goes to where it is needed. We also rely on trusted UN partners.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

I really appreciate the answer, but I have limited time, of course.

Would you be able to table that list of aid recipients with the committee?

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

Sure, Mr. Chair, I'm happy to provide in writing a list of the recipients for our first tranche of addressing the emergency field in the Gaza, the $10 million—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you. I appreciate it.

That's for the $25 million. Is that correct?

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

I would say for the first $10 million, this is an emergency intervention in response to the appeals, and those recipients are known. The other portions are still being worked out.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

All right. Please provide it to the extent that you know them.

Now, I want to ask a question.

It came to light last fall that anti-Semitic materials were being distributed through UNRWA to Palestinian students in Palestinian schools. At the time, I was encouraged when Minister Gould issued a statement saying that she instructed Canadian officials to investigate the references in school materials, in the West Bank and Gaza, that violate UN values of human rights.

I did an OPQ question and the response I got didn't mention anything about an investigation. I asked what the status of the investigation was and who the Canadian officials were who were involved in this investigation, and there was no information with respect to that. I'm wondering if maybe they left it out and that you could enlighten us as to what the nature and status of the investigation is.

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

Thanks very much.

Indeed, we were very concerned about the problematic educational materials that were sent out. We expect UNRWA to uphold UN values and principles.

Minister Gould immediately called the commissioner-general of UNRWA and has subsequently spoken with a large number of her counterparts to discuss this issue. She indeed asked officials to investigate what happened, what measures were being taken to rectify and remedy the situation, and what will be done going forward.

I'm pleased to indicate that we have very diligently been working with UNRWA, with the C-G, with—

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Will a report be issued on the investigation?

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Mr. Morantz, I'm sorry. We'll have to leave it there. You'll have a chance to perhaps follow up in a second round.

We'll give the floor now to Ms. Sahota, please, for five minutes.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Thank you.

I appreciate both of the witnesses being here today and their experience and depth of knowledge. I have a few questions to get through.

Canadians have been watching this unfold very closely, and many have been horrified at the human rights violations they have seen. As people have been digging into it and more and more of my constituents have been asking me questions about Canada's role in this, I want to understand it better but also understand Canada's view as to the viability of the two-state solution.

You look at the map currently, and it's like a whole bunch of puzzle pieces. There have been more and more expansions of settlements and forced evictions happening into the Palestinian territory.

What effect does that have on the fact that Canada believes in a two-state solution? Do we then believe, if we do not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem and other territories in Gaza, that Israel would have to cede that area? What are our thoughts on that?

4:10 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

Thank you very much.

That's a very good question. There are those who will say that the two-state solution is a dream that wasn't realized and a number of Palestinians have lost faith in the prospect of it. Certainly what has been happening on the ground with settlements, with evictions and with demolitions, has made it much more difficult to come to ground and to work towards a two-state solution.

However, if you take a step back and consider it, if the ultimate goal is that Israelis and Palestinians can live together in a secure environment, this is the path. The only way we're going to get there is if we sit down and investigate.

In terms of the land, the borders, those are issues that need to be worked out in the ultimate negotiation, so that we can get to a place where you have a viable Palestinian state. They both want to be secure. Neither side is going anywhere, so we need to work towards a two-state solution.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

If we are acknowledging the inherent illegality of the current land ownership, what do you think Canada's role can be in helping make sure that each have clear...? If we're working toward a two-state solution with clear borders that are defined, what can we do to help that happen?

4:15 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

On settlements and changing of geography on the ground, we have been very strong and vocal that settlement, evictions and demolitions are illegal, are contrary to the Fourth Geneva Convention and must stop. We have articulated this to our partners and to our Israeli friends publicly many times, as have other partners as well. What I think we need to do collectively is that partners need to talk about getting the right conditions in place to move us closer to that two-state solution, and that includes stopping evictions in settlements, which are happening now.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Can you help me better understand why 138 countries that are a part of the UN have recognized Palestine as a state, but we have not yet? Can you explain to me a little bit more as to why Canada has taken that stand?

4:15 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

What I would say is that we believe in the creation of a Palestinian state, but you can't just announce it. We need to collectively work together and get the circumstances so that there is a contiguous, viable, sovereign Palestinian state that works and functions. Unilateral declarations or actions that try to prejudge those negotiations, which are the only way forward, are problematic and obstacles to getting to where we need to be.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Can I quickly try to squeeze this in? Maybe you can even answer it later on if I run out of time. The normalization of diplomatic relations with Arab states and Israel, as we've seen over the years.... I mean, Egypt was always there, but now we've seen increased relations with other states like the UAE. Has that had an impact in the current Israeli-Palestinian relations?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Give a very brief answer, please, Mr. Lulashnyk.

4:15 p.m.

Director General, Maghreb, Egypt, Israel and West Bank and Gaza, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Troy Lulashnyk

I would say that I think it's been a positive regional relationship. The Palestinians are concerned that.... This was a negotiation coin, where there wouldn't be normalization until more work was done on the Palestinian issues, so they are worried about it, but ultimately, it's a positive thing. It brings stability.

Thanks.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Thank you very much. We'll have to leave it there.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back very quickly to the fact that Canada still has not recognized the Palestinian state, because it is supposedly not viable.

I should point out, however, that for many years, Israel seems to have been doing everything possible to ensure that the Palestinian state is not viable. When I had the opportunity to visit the country after another confrontation between the two peoples, I found that Israel was essentially surgically targeting the infrastructure of the Palestinian state, such as the police stations, the port and the airport. Since everything is done to destructure the Palestinian state, I wonder if we are not part of the problem by refusing to recognize Palestine.

Be that as it may, I want to come back to the issue of the Palestinian elections and the COVID‑19 pandemic.

Considering that Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world and Palestine has one of the lowest rates on the planet, don't you think that as an occupying power, Israel has a responsibility to the populations under its occupation and that Israel should contribute to the vaccination of the Palestinian population?