Foreign Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2021

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Certainly, on the vaccination question, we are quite concerned about the current state of affairs in the West Bank and Gaza. We have been discussing, with our partners, with donors and with the Palestinians, the plan for vaccination in both those areas. I've been told by the Palestinians that they are receiving doses from COVAX, and they have received and are receiving more vaccinations from other countries, partners and donors.

Getting Palestinians vaccinated is a key priority for all the donor community. It's part and parcel to the work we're doing, collectively, to help Gazans and Palestinians. You can provide medicine and food, but if COVID is still rampant, you're fighting a losing battle.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I totally agree. However, since I am running out of time, I will ask you again.

Given the fact that vaccination is, in practice, finished on Israeli territory, do you believe that Israel has a responsibility as an occupying power to provide vaccines to the populations under its occupation?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

I know Israel was asked that very question, and it indicated that it did not feel it had a responsibility to vaccinate the Palestinians. Other measures were taken for the Palestinians, but Israel did, indeed, facilitate the movement of vaccines through Israel and into the Palestinian territory.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Harris, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, again, to the witness.

You referenced the Canadian government condemning settlements, evictions and demolitions as illegal, but you didn't mention the occupation, as such. We have a situation where, as long as this goes on or the longer this goes on, we see the permanent denial of the freedoms, rights and equality of the Palestinians on a longer basis. Clearly, something has to be done to stop that.

While you might vote against the resolution because you don't like the preamble, could Canada not be stating that it regards this occupation as illegal and look for an end to it?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Canada's policy is long-standing. We do not recognize permanent Israeli control over the territories from the 1967 conflict, which includes east Jerusalem, Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank. This is what makes the settlements the Israelis are building in those territories illegal and contrary to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

I very much agree that we need to work on the two-state solution, step by step, so that we can improve the lives of all in the region.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Why then, where there are allegations of human rights violations against both Hamas and Israeli soldiers, does the Government of Canada prevent serious investigations into these human rights, including at the ICC?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

With respect to the International Criminal Court, our position is very clear and has been stated many times in 2015, 2018 and 2020. As soon as the Palestinians sought to accede to the Rome Statute of the ICC, Canada indicated that it did not support Palestinian accession to the Rome Statute as a state, and that is—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

But Canada didn't argue that case before the ICC when it had an opportunity to do so.

[Troy Lulashnyk]

The same rationale for not supporting unilateral actions that prejudge the outcome...like accessions, and the Palestinians have sought to accede to dozens. In fact, they mention probably 300 instruments, treaties and—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Isn't that preventing Palestine from becoming a state, the element of international co-operation and acceding to international norms? We urge that on all sorts of states or entities we aren't happy with. Surely, acceding to statehood expects responses from them as individuals and as a government as well, so this is something that is positive in nature, is it not, instead of exclusive? Should it not be a force for positive instead of exclusion...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Mr. Harris, that's your time.

If we can get a very quick answer from Mr. Lulashnyk, that would be great. Then we'll go on to the next speaker, please.

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Thanks very much.

I appreciate the comment. I'd just say that a number of these efforts for accession are driven to send a message. It's not really about the Palestinians wanting to participate in the chemical weapons convention, for example. It's to make a political point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

Thank you very much.

Next up is Mr. Genuis, please, for five minutes.

Go ahead. The floor is yours.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to start by making a comment that has been brought up about the issue of Palestinian elections. I believe very much that Palestinian self-determination involves Palestinians choosing their own representatives. The implication of what some have been saying is that you can't have elections unless there are ideal conditions in terms of voting in all parts of the claimed territory, but if that were the practice in general, there would be no elections happening in Ireland, in Cyprus and in many other places.

In fact, the Central Tibetan Administration just held elections, even though Tibet remains fully under CCP occupation and the CTA doesn't have any official access to Tibet whatsoever. I would just submit that if the CTA can hold elections, the Palestinian Authority could hold elections. Nations of people seeking independence should begin the process of nation building without delay, and effective nation building requires democratic elections.

To our witnesses, I'm very concerned about the political human rights and humanitarian situation in Gaza, so I want to ask a few questions that relate to that.

During the conflict, Al Jazeera reported that an important humanitarian corridor, the Kerem Shalom border crossing, was subject to a mortar attack by Hamas and was shut down for a period of time. This obviously had significant negative impacts in terms of the ability to get humanitarian supplies into Gaza.

Can you confirm whether this humanitarian corridor was indeed attacked by Hamas? Do you have any sense of why Hamas would have attacked a humanitarian corridor like this?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

I hesitate to be a confirmation, but what I can say is that I heard from our partners that incidents, including this one, have occurred, and that humanitarian actors and supplies were either targeted or prevented from entering.

In terms of the reason, again, it's hard for me to speculate, but obviously the intention and the pressure on all parties Hamas may not have wanted alleviated instantly, to keep the pressure on and keep sending the message. One of the reasons specified for their frustration was the cancellation of elections, where they hoped to do well. They were very frustrated with the overall situation with the Palestinian Authority, and the result was the significant conflict.

Hamas, at least in this time frame, became more popular among some Palestinians for being a defender.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's just horrifying that Hamas would attack a vital humanitarian crossing like that. I think it's testimony that's important for people to hear.

I maybe just want to clarify that the importance of having democratic elections take place, where they can take place in the West Bank, involves a system whereby whoever wins that election isn't able to take complete control through an armed takeover. That's essentially what happened in Gaza previously. Hamas, after winning one election, made sure there were no subsequent elections taking place.

According to the Israeli military, of the 4,340 rockets fired by Hamas, close to 700 of them landed in the Gaza Strip, destroying infrastructure, injuring hundreds and killing dozens. Does Canada have estimates about how many Hamas rockets landed in Gaza and the impact of these rockets on Palestinian civilians?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

I don't want to give precise statistics, Mr. Chair, but I can say that the numbers we have heard are very similar to those just quoted.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Matthias Schmale, UNRWA's director in Gaza, described Israel's attacks as “precise” and “sophisticated”. After making these comments, he was recalled from his post. Hamas effectively demanded that he be fired. What does this say about UNRWA's ability to operate in any way independently?

To follow up on Mr. Morantz's comments, will there be any public reporting on this alleged investigation being done by the Minister of International Development with respect to UNRWA?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

We are learning about the issue related to the UNRWA director in Gaza. We're looking into that. To me, it indicates the extreme tension that takes place in Gaza. You have an organization trying to represent the UN and support the people, and their values and interests are often extremely different from those of Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, and other groups in Gaza. The tension is always there. This is certainly another indication of that taking place.

On the issue of the educational materials, as mentioned, we have had a series of meetings and discussions. A number of measures have put in place, including the launch of a digital learning platform. That has a vetting procedure of three steps. Educational materials, before they're posted online, are evaluated in terms of neutrality and appropriateness. That is in place now. Those neutrality discussions, which Canada funds through its programming, are ongoing. We're having meetings every couple of weeks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sven Spengemann]

We'll have to leave it there.

Thanks very much, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Oliphant, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lulashnyk, for your time with us again.

Going back to the elections issue, I'm wondering if it's fair to say that Canada has done two things: called upon the Palestinian Authority to have elections as soon as possible, and called upon Israel to ensure that all who voted the last time could vote this time. Is that fair to say?

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Yes. That's absolutely correct. We very much think that the Palestinians are long overdue. The Palestinian people deserve to exercise their democratic rights. We have raised it with the Israelis on numerous occasions to help make this happen.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I bring that up as an example of one of the ways in which Canada is attempting to be helpful and also strong on both sides. It was raised by a number of members of the committee, so I wanted to stress that as an example.

Getting off elections for a moment, I know that you bring particular expertise, having been our ambassador in Egypt, so I want to talk a little bit about the role of Egypt in the negotiation of the ceasefire as well as in this ongoing peacebuilding moment that we are in, and Canada's potential or possible support for Egypt and how we could play a role—or if we should play a role, in your opinion.

[Troy Lulashnyk]

Thanks very much.

Yes, I would say Egypt played a critical role in helping bring about the ceasefire with extensive conversations and negotiations with the Israelis and with Hamas and others. I think they really carried the weight of this burden in this latest conflict.

We had a team that went into Gaza just a couple of days ago. They could see Egyptian flags and pictures of President Sisi in a number of places. I think the Gazans really appreciated President Sisi's direct intervention.

The Egyptians have done this a number of times over the past few years as the conflicts have increased. They're certainly an important player for how we can engage to build peace in that relationship. Jordan's another key player. They're the two that have had peace treaties with Israel for some time.

We are talking with the Egyptians and our foreign minister has had recent discussions with his Egyptian counterpart. Egypt is absolutely one key partner in the region and one that we'll continue to engage.