Evidence of meeting #17 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukraine.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Angell  Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council, Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO
Excellency Leslie Scanlon  Ambassador of Canada to Poland and Belarus, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Heidi Kutz  Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yuliia Kovaliv  Ambassador-designate of Ukraine in Canada , Embassy of Ukraine

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Good morning, colleagues.

Eid Moubarak to everyone celebrating this day in Canada and around the world.

Welcome to meeting No. 17 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Pursuant to the motion adopted on January 31, the committee is meeting on its study of the current situation in Ukraine.

As always, interpretation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of your screen.

For members participating in person, please do keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mic should be on mute.

A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

Colleagues, just before we welcome our witnesses, I want to raise with you the fact that we have a number of housekeeping items before us. My proposal is that we discuss them with the vice-chairs and Ms. McPherson through email in preparation for Thursday and that we adopt these decisions on Thursday.

We're dealing with a number of requests to appear. We are dealing with a motion that proposed that we reinvite the witnesses who were not heard at our last session. There is an opportunity to do so on May 9. We are dealing, importantly, with two proposals for committee travel, which we should adopt unanimously and well before Friday so that the opportunity exists for the committee to travel during the period of June to October.

If that's amenable with colleagues, I will work closely with your vice-chairs and Ms. McPherson so that these decisions are ready for quick approval on Thursday.

I would now like to welcome our first panel of witnesses before the committee, and thank them for agreeing to take the time to share their views with us.

With us today are two representatives from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Leslie Scanlon, Ambassador of Canada to Poland and Belarus, and Heidi Kutz, Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs.

From the Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO, we have with us David Angell, ambassador and permanent representative to the North Atlantic Council.

Welcome to our witnesses.

Ambassador Angell, I understand you'll be making the remarks on behalf of Global Affairs today. With that, I will give you the floor for five minutes of opening remarks.

Please go ahead, sir.

11:05 a.m.

David Angell Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council, Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too want to wish everyone Eid Moubarak.

I'm pleased to be here before the committee today.

I'll make some brief introductory comments, and then my colleagues and I will happily answer your questions.

On the 68th day of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, we are still witnessing an enormous amount of human suffering, destruction of cities and infrastructures, widespread sexual violence being used as a weapon of terror, indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, forced displacements and in some instances, as in Bucha, what appears to be the deliberate massacre of civilians.

This is President Putin's war, a war he wanted and planned, and which he is continuing to pursue against a peaceful and democratic country.

Putin's actions are an attack against the rule-based international order. They have shaken Euro-Atlantic security and represent the most serious threat to Europe in decades.

The consequences of President Putin's careless actions go beyond Ukraine and Europe's borders. Russia is challenging the principles of state sovereignty and territorial integrity, and the sovereign equality of states. And yet these principles are the very foundation of our international order.

The invasion has also injected a new level of uncertainty into the world trade system, at the very moment it was just beginning to emerge from the COVID‑19 pandemic. The war has led directly to an increase in the price of food and energy. Food and energy security have accordingly been seriously upset around the world. Developing countries that are highly dependent on Ukraine's agricultural output are particularly hard hit.

Russia's initial plan, a rapid military operation aimed at regime change, has failed. Russia overestimated the capacity of its own armed forces and underestimated the determination and professionalism of the Ukrainian armed forces, not to mention the heroism of the Ukrainian people. Russia is now focusing on the Donbas region, where most of its forces are now concentrated.

In this second phase of the war, the Ukrainian armed forces are still doing relatively well, but the war of attrition is likely to drag on.

NATO allies and partners have responded in three critical ways. First, individual allies and partners have supported Ukraine with substantial amounts of military assistance. The solidarity of allies and partners has been remarkable.

The first phase of assistance focused on providing Ukrainians with light weapons and Soviet-era heavy systems they could quickly integrate and deploy to the battlefield. Individual allies such as the Baltic countries, Poland and Slovakia transferred significant amounts of their legacy Soviet systems, but the Soviet-era stocks are dwindling. Individual allies and partners are now transitioning towards providing western heavy weaponry, on which Ukrainians will have to be trained. This is a complex operation in which Canada is very much a participant. Last week's conference in Ramstein, Germany, of more than 40 allies and partners demonstrated a collective willingness to ensure that we succeed in supporting Ukraine in the exercise of its right to self-defence in the face of Russian aggression, as provided for under the United Nations charter.

Second, NATO, as a defensive alliance, has reinforced its eastern flank to ensure that the conflict does not spread to allied territory.

Allies, including Canada, deployed additional troops, and NATO activated its graduated response plans. Four new multinational forward presence battle groups were established, in Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia. As we speak, there are now more than 40,000 military personnel under direct NATO command on the eastern flank and allies have over 100 ships and over 100 aircraft patrolling the skies and seas of Europe.

At the Madrid summit in June, NATO leaders will update NATO's capstone strategic concept and will adjust NATO's longer-term force posture over the medium and long term to respond to a fundamentally changed security environment in Europe.

Third, individual allies and partners and the European Union have responded with unprecedentedly robust and far-reaching sanctions, which were tightly coordinated, including through the G7. Again, the solidarity amongst like-minded has been remarkable.

NATO and EU countries were joined by partners such as Australia, Japan, the Republic of Korea and Switzerland. One of the objectives of sanctions has been to degrade Russia's military capabilities by cutting access of its defence sector to western technology.

The war has led many countries to re-evaluate their security environment, including Finland and Sweden, which are key partners of NATO. Application for NATO membership is a sovereign decision and we fully respect every country's right to decide its own security arrangements, which of course applies equally to Finland and Sweden. Canada has always been a champion of NATO's open-door policy and will continue to support that open door despite Russia's threats. Prime Minister Trudeau has stated that Canada would support Finland and Sweden, should they choose to apply to join NATO.

In the meantime, Canada continues to engage the broader international community to uphold global norms, to condemn Russia's aggression, and to maintain pressure on President Putin.

We will continue to work with our NATO allies, with the EU, within the G7, the OSCE, the UN and other international fora, and bilaterally to support Ukraine as it fights for its independence and for democracy and freedom.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Ambassador Angell, thank you very much for your opening remarks.

The first round of questions consists of six-minute allocations. Leading us off this morning is Mr. Morantz.

The floor is yours for six minutes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your opening statement, Ambassador Angell.

Firstly, to Ambassador Scanlon, regarding the situation with Gazprom halting delivery of gas to Poland and Bulgaria, and Russia's claims that it wants to be paid in rubles, it's clear that Russia is really using its energy resources as a weapon of war and a foreign policy instrument.

Why did Gazprom target Poland and Bulgaria specifically? What impact do you think there will be on Polish households and businesses? Are there other countries that could be affected by this?

May 2nd, 2022 / 11:15 a.m.

Her Excellency Leslie Scanlon Ambassador of Canada to Poland and Belarus, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Last Wednesday at eight o'clock in the morning, Russia did indeed cut off gas exports to Poland and Bulgaria for their refusal to pay for the gas exports in rubles.

Is there more to this? Poland has been one of the more vocal nations in the EU and among neighbouring countries against Russia over many years—not just recently.

You asked how this will affect Poles. Inflation is already climbing, but on the actual gas and energy issue, Poland has about a 75% gas reserve status. That is above the 30% to 33% average in the EU for domestic gas reserves, so they are well prepared. They have also opened up a pipeline coming in from Lithuania. There's a Baltic pipeline that's starting up in the fall. There are lots of other methods for getting energy into Poland. Poland had the intention of cutting off imports from Russia this year in any event, so they have been working towards this.

There's no doubt there will be an impact on people's costs of living and on other issues. Business is working with government and there is a good dialogue on both sides.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you very much.

Turning to sanctions for a second, Canada has imposed hundreds of sanctions—Magnitsky-style sanctions and sanctions that are focused at the state level—in concert with our allies, NATO and otherwise.

Do you have a sense of what effect those sanctions are having? I note that Russia's oil sales are still about $1.5 billion a day, which is essentially what they were before the war. They are making payments in euros on their euro bonds. The ruble has now recovered.

I know that sanctions do have an effect, but I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what we know is happening and what effect they're having.

11:15 a.m.

Leslie Scanlon

If you're talking about impacts in Russia, I'll turn to my colleague Heidi Kutz, who might be better placed to speak to that.

11:20 a.m.

Heidi Kutz Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you and good morning, Mr. Chair.

Of course Canada's efforts in working with like-minded partners are unprecedented in magnitude and breadth, as well as the common sense of purpose and coordination across international partners.

These sanctions have aimed to target the heart of Russia's financial system, institutions, major Russian banks, Russia's access to the SWIFT system, as well as oligarchs who have supported the Putin regime or benefited from Russia's invasion of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity. As we know, many companies have divested or ceased their operations in Russia, so we do believe that sanctions are having an impact on Russia.

We expect the longer-term impact to be fairly significant. Some estimates are that Russia's economy will shrink by about 8% to 10% by the end of 2022. As well, we are seeing a rise in inflation, with some estimates as high as 20%, with a reduction in real wages.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

I have very limited time. I appreciate that.

11:20 a.m.

Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heidi Kutz

I apologize.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

If you are reading from your talking points, you could table them with the committee and we'll have a look at them.

Early in the conflict—this is more for Ambassador Angell—Ukraine was asking NATO to impose a no-fly zone. For the record, I agree with the decision not to. What puzzles me more is why NATO would make that position public.

Strategically, wouldn't it have been better to keep someone like Mr. Putin in the blind, wondering whether we might or might not take such an action?

11:20 a.m.

Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council, Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO

David Angell

Intelligence agencies were quite clear early on that President Putin was intent on launching an invasion. The risks with ambiguity signalling...if you're confident that the invasion will be launched, and you're ambiguous in your signalling, there is a real risk that failure to take the action you haven't announced will be seen as a sign of weakness.

There has been a determined effort by NATO to avoid putting NATO and Russian troops in contact with each other. The concern with the no-fly zone was, first of all, that we couldn't expect the UN Security Council to authorize one. Russia has a veto. Absent UN authorization, it becomes more difficult. A no-fly zone, of course, has to be enforced. We would almost certainly have seen a situation in which NATO troops and Russian troops were interacting.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marty Morantz Conservative Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Minister Lavrov has accused NATO of waging a proxy war, and said that the risk of nuclear conflict should not be underestimated. That language, coming from Mr. Lavrov, is extremely concerning.

What is NATO's assessment of the war escalating beyond Ukraine? What would NATO's response be if Russia used nuclear weapons?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Ambassador, in the interests of time, please give a very brief answer. We may have to circle back to a more detailed explanation.

11:20 a.m.

Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council, Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO

David Angell

The nuclear rhetoric that has been employed very much by President Putin and Foreign Minister Lavrov has been condemned. It's reckless and dangerous. There was an indication of a change of Russia's nuclear status, but in fact, we've not seen anything to back that up.

We are very concerned about the prospect of escalation, which is always present. We're also very concerned, for example, about the prospect of vulnerable partners, such as Moldova and Georgia, becoming embroiled in the conflict—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

We'll have to leave it there, in the interests of our schedule. I apologize, Ambassador.

Dr. Fry, please go ahead, for six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you very much.

I want to thank you all for coming. This is such an escalating problem, and no one knows what is going to happen tomorrow.

I want to ask a couple of questions. One is about humanitarian....

The other one is about the fact that Canada, in the 2022 budget, gave about $500 million to Ukraine for military aid. Do you think that is enough?

What is it that Ukraine expects from Canada and the allies in terms of lethal and non-lethal military aid? I know that everyone, including people here in Canada, thinks that things aren't moving quickly enough, although we have to work with our allies.

Do you feel that we are doing the things we need to do? Is Ukraine satisfied with our aid?

What can we can do to help to move this agenda forward without provoking Russia into a war against NATO and escalating this even further?

11:25 a.m.

Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council, Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO

David Angell

Perhaps I might take a first run at the answer.

Allies and partners met in Ramstein last week to increase our support and our ability to work together to respond to Ukraine's needs.

It's true, Mr. Chair, that the budget included an additional $500 million for military support for Ukraine in response to Ukraine's wishes. This is in addition to the extensive assistance that Canada has provided so far, with over $131 million in lethal and non-lethal aid, including, most recently, a supply of howitzers. In addition, we are providing cyber-assistance, intelligence sharing and access to satellite imagery.

Canada is one of a small number of countries that have been supporting Ukraine since long before February 24. Through Operation Unifier, we trained almost 35,000 troops.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Excuse me, Mr. Angell. I'm thinking maybe everyone is thinking it's not enough; it's not having any impact. What can we do? What is enough? What is going to cause impact? What is going to make Russia back off, if anything? Other than an all-out war which.... Russia is threatening Sweden and Finland with nuclear missiles, etc. Is there something we can do to help Ukraine? It is getting worse and worse. They're fighting valiantly, but they're not winning, really; they're just holding ground, so to speak. What can we do?

I don't know who can answer my second question. I'll just let anybody who thinks they can move in. We know that sexual assault and rape are now a tactic of war. It's no longer an unintended consequence, like collateral damage. What is happening? Are people who are working with refugees safe? Are they also threatened? What is happening with trafficking and rape against the women and children? It's mostly women and children who are out there as refugees. What are we doing to help? Is there something we can do?

Those are the two pieces. It just seems that everyone thinks that nothing that anyone is doing is working. I guess there's a sense of frustration.

11:25 a.m.

Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the North Atlantic Council, Joint Delegation of Canada to NATO

David Angell

Mr. Chair, perhaps I might answer the first question and defer to Heidi Kutz on the second.

The premise of the Ramstein meeting was that individual allies and partners need to provide ever more sophisticated military assistance to Ukraine. This is a shift from the Soviet-era weaponry to much more modern systems. Part of the premise was recognition of the need to provide training. The types of weapons that individual allies and partners are providing to Ukraine are becoming much more robust, and we are seeing that the weaponry is having a significant impact on the ground. We are working very closely to respond to Ukraine's specific asks.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you.

Ms. Kutz, I'm really concerned about the impact on women and children—rape, etc. What can we do to stop it? Are even workers coming in being threatened as well with sexual violence?

11:25 a.m.

Senior Arctic Official and Director General, Arctic, Eurasian and European Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Heidi Kutz

Thank you for the question. I'll just add to the initial question of whether Canada is responsive to what Ukraine is asking for. Certainly, Ambassador Angell has outlined our military support, and then of course we have worked in support of Ukraine's economic resilience, providing funds through the International Monetary Fund and an offer of up to $620 million in loans. We certainly stay in contact with that.

We are channelling significant humanitarian aid funds into Ukraine as well as the broader region, which is a little bit of an answer to your broader question—$245 million in support of humanitarian effort. We continue to work with the local organizations and partners that we have always had on the ground to allow them to pivot their programming, including in important areas of support to women and children who, as you have outlined, are disproportionately affected by the conflict.

Furthermore, just from the accountability dimension, of course, we are pursuing actions within the International Criminal Court and supporting the effective gathering and collection of evidence to be able to track crimes taking place.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you, Ms. Kutz. I have a quick question. What are the current prospects for peace talks? I know this is almost an airy-fairy question to ask, but are there really any true prospects for peace talks?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sven Spengemann

Give a very brief answer, please, in the interest of time.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Maybe Mr. Angell will do it.