Evidence of meeting #23 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Marty, may I just finalize on that?
Heather, I don't have that specific information, but we can provide that to you.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Marty Morantz
Thank you, Minister.
Beginning round two, we have Mr. Bezan for five minutes.
Mr. Bezan, you have the floor.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank Ministers Joly and Wilkinson for joining us today.
I have to say that I am very disappointed and embarrassed that Canada has been outplayed and outmanoeuvred by Vladimir Putin and the Russian Federation. We keep talking about calling Putin's bluff, but we have to remember that Putin is always playing chess, and it seems like the Government of Canada is playing checkers.
I believe that returning the turbines is the thin edge of the wedge that will undermine our entire sanctions regime, because what's going to happen the next time Russia is pushing for something and we have to call his bluff?
I want to ask Minister Joly if she looked at any analysis of the impacts this decision will have on Ukraine.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
Thank you, James.
Of course, we take into account Ukraine's reality when taking any decision. That's why Minister Wilkinson and I had contact with our counterparts. I even spoke to Dmytro Kuleba yesterday, and he didn't raise the issue of the turbine when we had the discussion. The question was much more about Ukraine's grains getting out of Odessa, and making sure that there's more financial support for Ukraine directly as Ukraine is dealing with a currency that is obviously affected by the war, so making sure we and other allies provide more financial support. At the same time, we also talked about military support and you saw what the—
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC
—Minister of Defence announced today about the resumption of Operation Unifier.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I welcome the resumption of Operation Unifier. I think it's necessary, but I'll also say this—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
—do you realize that this year, so far, Russia has only been able to generate about $95 billion from European gas sales? Last year, it was over $524 billion in sales to Europe. Do you realize, Madam Minister, that Gazprom is over 50% controlled by the Russian government and that a couple years ago Gazprom had net revenues of over $123 billion U.S.?
That means that $62 billion is going back to Russia because it owns over 50% of the company, and we know that over 45% of the Russian Federation's budget is from oil and gas revenue. Did you consider that the dollars Gazprom is going to get will go back to the Kremlin and will help fuel Putin's war machine, such as by buying more AK-74 military rifles, which go for about $800 apiece, or buy more cruise missiles and all the other artillery that's then fired into Kyiv and around Ukraine, which has already been estimated to cost over $80 billion? If we're going to give them $62 billion more, how much more damage is that going to entail for Ukraine and how many more of their lives are going to be lost?
I want to know how many Ukrainians have to die because of this Liberal government's enabling of Gazprom to put more money into Putin's war machine?
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
Can I take that question?
I think, Mr. Bezan, you actually misunderstand a lot of the things that were going on—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
The Ukrainian government actually proposed an alternative route for the gas to flow through Ukraine—that was their proposal. That would have had zero impact on the dollars that accrue to Russia, because it still would have been Russian gas flowing through the alternative pipeline. At the end of the day—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Let's say this, Minister Wilkinson, as the minister responsible for natural resources, you're also responsible to make sure that we get more gas from Canada to replace that natural gas coming from Russia.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
—if you're saying you think all Russian gas should be cut off from the European Union right now, then you need to be able to explain to the Germans and the French and the Italians how they're going to survive the winter. It's very easy to make those kinds of comments.
I would say—and perhaps you can put this on the record—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
—if you're saying that the Conservative Party would not have returned the turbines, I think it's important for Canadians to understand that that's the position of the Conservative Party of Canada. Is that the position?
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I think what you just mentioned is that Ukraine had another option, so why didn't you fulfill that option and sit on the turbines? Will you make the decision to actually—
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
Because we actually did our due diligence, Mr. Bezan.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver, BC
We actually worked with the International Energy Agency to see how viable that option was, and it was not viable in terms of flowing the amounts of gas that would be required. It would actually require that we have faith in Russia that they would [Inaudible—Editor] the gas flows—
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Minister Wilkinson, Minister Joly, let me ask you this question—
