Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 21st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Sidhu.

We now go to Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's really important to underline again that the turbine issue is a question of sanctions. It's a question of whether we have a “Swiss cheese” sanctions regime where exceptions are made based on local calculations of economic interests, or whether we have a consistent sanctions regime. This is not an incidental issue. This is not angels dancing on the head of a pin.

This is really, really important. The level and nature of our sanctions determine the capacity of the Russian army to wage war, and that's why we need a credible and consistent sanctions regime. That's why we need to study the sanctions regime. There are, of course, other aspects to this. This is a core issue for Ukraine. It is a core issue in the Canada-Ukraine relationship that we have consistent sanctions, and a key question in that dynamic is the turbine issue.

I think we have a few different things being said. I agree with Mr. Bergeron that, in some way or another, this needs to be brought to a conclusion, with a concrete recommendation. I get the impression that some members of the government would rather gloss over the recommendation piece of this and just move straight on to discussing other issues related to Ukraine. I think we owe it to Parliament and to the people who sent us here to answer the core question that we sought to answer in our hearings, which is whether or not the permit should be revoked.

In terms of how many more meetings, again, it's whatever other members want in terms of the number additional meetings, but I think hearing from Siemens is important. I think we want to hear from the minister again, clearly, but that's about the situation in Ukraine more broadly. I hope that we are able to draft a report that, according to Ms. McPherson's amendment, would cover the broader situation, not just the turbine issue.

Again, if members think they want to further adjust some of these numbers, they can propose an amendment or a subamendment. The goal of this motion is to bring this study to a reasonable conclusion, to answer the question that we sought to answer, and then, by all means, to be able to move on to other issues in the context of the Ukraine situation. But again, sanctions, and the turbines as part of that sanctions debate, are at the very core of the question of how Russia is funding its war machine and how we can interrupt that funding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Next we have Ms. Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

In light of the comments, I'd like to make a suggestion, and then we can debate it before asking the analysts to draft the subamendment.

Mr. Genuis, if you'd like another meeting, we could have one to hear the two witnesses. One meeting should be more than enough to hear two witnesses. As you just said, the Minister of Foreign Affairs could appear. Since we're talking about broader testimony, we could agree that she appear for our study on Ukraine. Once again, as Ms. McPherson suggested, our report would have to be about the bigger picture, including the turbine issue.

To respond to my colleague Mr. Bergeron, I feel it's entirely appropriate for this committee to address the permit issue in the report. Therefore, if it pleases the committee, we could include our recommendation in the broader Ukraine report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Just to confirm, are you proposing a subamendment?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Yes. I believe we need to clarify that it's one more meeting on the turbine issue to hear testimony from the two witnesses mentioned in the motion and that thereafter we go back to the Ukraine study. As requested, we would hear from our minister and prepare a report more broadly on what we have heard since the beginning of our study, which dates now to January.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order. I'm just trying to be helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes. I certainly hope it's a point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Is it a subamendment to strike (a)? I think striking (a) would achieve what you want to achieve.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I think striking (a) and, I think, (e).... I'm not sure anybody has any clarity on what (e) actually is. Is that a new study? If it's a new study, it should be in a separate motion. Given that we're having only one meeting, I don't think we're looking at the general sanctions regime. I also note in passing that the Senate is doing an exhaustive legislative review of sanctions in Canada.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I think you'd find unanimous consent for the following: to strike (a) and (e) and deem Ms. McPherson's amendment and the main motion adopted.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Can I just have a reminder on what the amendment to (d) is to make sure it includes my suggestion?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Right now (d) would be “instruct staff to prepare a draft report on the committee's study on Ukraine, including the sanctions waiver”.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have sought unanimous consent on something.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Should we hear the whole motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Clerk, could you kindly repeat the entire subamendment?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

On the issue of the permit, Ms. Bendayan suggested we might go back to Mr. Genuis's original wording. Is she willing to have us be more explicit in our resolution or does she want us to remain vague?

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I think we could instruct the analysts as to our recommendations in due course. Usually recommendations are not included in a motion, but I understand where you're coming from. Maybe we could more formally let you know about something like that, to be crystal clear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I support what Madame Bendayan has suggested as well as the subamendment and the amendment, so I think we should just adopt it all. It would mean that we would have two more meetings related to the gas turbines, the first of which would be to hear from Siemens and the Canadian Gas Association, and the second of which would be to hear from the Minister of Foreign Affairs on general issues.

My sense is that the committee supports it. Mr. Chair, I ask that we have the vote on the subamendment and the amendment and then adopt the main motion as amended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

We will go to the clerk, who will kindly read it out just so everyone is essentially on the same page.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Ariane Gagné-Frégeau]

The motion as amended would read as follows:

That, in relation to the study of the export of Russian Gazprom turbines, the committee invite representatives of Siemens and of Canadian Gas Association to testify for two hours; invite the Minister of Foreign Affairs to appear for two hours to provide an update on the turbine issue and other Ukraine-related developments; and instruct staff to prepare a draft report on the committee’s study on Ukraine, including the sanctions waiver.