Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Sébastien Carrière]

... to fight against professional soldiers is another matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

We will now go to Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Bergeron, you have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses and thank them very much for being with us today.

Ambassador, you are aware that we are facing a lose-lose situation, given that no one is eager to see an intervention by the international community, whether or not led by Canada, if only to try to support the Haitian government in breaking the deadlock and ensuring security in the country, which is a prerequisite for organizing elections.

There is also the opinion of Haitians and the Haitian diaspora who are asking us to do nothing, since every time the West sets foot in the country it makes the situation worse.

The ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae, referred to this: we have to take the pulse of the people. Haitians have to be involved, to determine future solutions. The problem is that we don't really know whom to deal with, as you said. The government is asking us to intervene, but what legitimacy does this government have?

On October 7, you told Le Nouvelliste that Haiti was a few minutes away from having an agreement between Ariel Henry and Fritz Alphonse Jean.

What is the situation at present?

[Sébastien Carrière]

From what I understand, talks resumed a few days ago among the various parties. You mentioned the prime minister and Fritz Alphonse Jean, the president elected under the Montana accord, but there are other actors in the equation.

The good news is that there are still tables in Haiti, whether they are small, medium-sized or large. People are talking to one another. The bad news is that the discussions held for the last year have led nowhere. The example you cite, from October 7, is the last one on the list. We are continuing to promote that dialogue.

Last week, the assessment mission was here with us. We met with the main political actors. The message was meant for everyone, and it related to the importance of listening to one another.

Playing politics cannot be allowed to happen as it usually does.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

You referred to the assessment mission. I believe it has ended now.

Who made up the mission?

Do we have an idea of its conclusions?

[Sébastien Carrière]

The members of the mission came home on Saturday. They are now in Ottawa to take stock of the situation, hold meetings, and write a report.

The team included two people from the Department of Foreign Affairs, the director of the peace and stabilization operations program, and the director of humanitarian affairs. There was also a representative from the Department of National Defence and a representative from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The mission was led by Daniel Jean, the former deputy minister of foreign affairs and national security advisor to the Prime Minister, who himself had two postings to Haiti over the course of his career.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

On October 27, on L'heure du monde broadcast on ICI Première, Gilles Rivard, the former ambassador of Canada to Haiti, said that we should start by imposing sanctions on certain private sector actors and corrupt Haitian politicians to regularly travel abroad, including to Canada, and I quote, to make their investments prosper.

You seemed to agree with that statement when you answered a question asked by my colleague Emmanuel Dubourg. On October 21, a few days earlier, the United Nations Security Council adopted a resolution providing for sanctions relating to Haiti. That resolution allows a travel ban, an asset freeze, and an arms embargo targeting designated individuals who engage in criminal activities in Haiti. Those activities include arms trafficking, attacking United Nations personnel, abduction, obstructing delivery of humanitarian assistance, and violating human rights, including the commission of sexual and gender-based violence.

There is a desire to impose sanctions, but at this point, nothing is happening. Can we hope that Canada will shortly impose sanctions, particularly when the whole idea seems to be viewed favourably?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Yes, work is proceeding very intensely. You can therefore hope that something will happen soon.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I take it from this that we will have news soon. Stay tuned!

In addition, the United States and Mexico are preparing another draft resolution on Haiti. According to the United States representative at the United Nations Security Council, that resolution would authorize an international security assistance mission that was not under the aegis of the United Nations with the aim of improving the security climate and facilitating the delivery of humanitarian assistance that is desperately needed by the population. While the proposed mission would not come under the aegis of the United Nations, the United States and Mexico have proposed that it be led under chapter VII of the United Nations Charter.

Do you know where that draft resolution, that the United States and Mexico are working on, stands now?

[Sébastien Carrière]

I know there were pretty intense talks about this in New York last week and they are continuing this week.

Our ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae, is participating in those talks, as are several of my colleagues.

I won't presume to say they are inventing something new. However, from what I know, a mission under Chapter VII has never been carried out that was not under the aegis of the United Nations. This means that everyone has to explain the concepts a little better, and then the permanent members, in particular, will take a position on what is presented. That work is going on very intensely in New York this week.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

What reason do you think there is for wanting to lead a mission that was not under the aegis of the United Nations but came under Chapter VII of the Charter?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Well, there have been a lot...

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Give us a short response. You have less than 15 seconds for your response.

[Sébastien Carrière]

To answer in 15 seconds, I will say there have been a lot of missions in the past. I think there has been a lot of bad publicity or bad moves in certain past missions, so they are perhaps trying to avoid those kinds of events, which damage reputations.

Having said that, I will add that it is pure speculation on my part.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

We now go to Ms. McPherson.

You have six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the ambassador for sharing this information with us. I want to express my sympathies to him, his staff and all Haitians as they go through this very difficult time.

I know, from the many Haitian Canadians to whom I've spoken, that this is an incredibly painful time. Obviously, Haiti is facing a horrendous humanitarian, political and economic crisis. Humanitarians to whom I've spoken have told me this is the worst...they have ever seen in Haiti. Of course, Haitian Canadians are very worried about their friends and families. Quite frankly, some are opposed to Canada's position.

Mr. Ambassador, I'm sure you're aware of the many criticisms of the Core Group. Many Haitians don't trust the intentions of the group and have accused it of interference in Haiti's domestic affairs. I'm sure you read Evan Dyer's piece last year on the resignation of Daniel Foote, who called it “international puppeteering” and said it was hubris for us to pick leadership in Haiti.

Ambassador, the Global Affairs website says the Core Group has a mandate to serve as the voice of the international community to the state of Haiti. Could you give me some sense of who gave the Core Group this mandate?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Maybe we need to update the website.

First, I want to thank you for your kind words. I just want to say that the Haitian people are extraordinary. They get up every morning and face challenges that we can't even imagine as Canadians. I don't deserve to breathe the same air they do. It's a honour to serve both Canada and the Haitian people.

With regard to the diaspora, I hear them. I hear them. I have relatives and friends. I grew up in the suburbs of Montreal with a Haitian uncle and a Haitian stepdad there for awhile, so I hear it. I sometimes feel it, too, although I'm not allowed to say that as an ambassador. I know it's a very delicate issue for very right historical reasons.

Now the Core Group.... I get this question a lot. I'm going to try the short version; I don't want to eat all your time.

I did a panel with some diaspora members this summer, and we talked about it for half an hour or something. It started on their previous UN missions, where the SRSG.... They were chapter VII missions, right? In a chapter VII mission, the state gives a bit of its sovereignty to the United Nations. The special representative of the Secretary-General kind of becomes sort of a “president bis”, right. There's a lot of power with a chapter VII resolution. The Core Group was created to sort of diffuse that power and help manage it. It was formed, basically, by countries that contributed troops to the missions, so the membership sort of evolved as the group of contributing nations changed over the various missions.

Now the last troops left, and MINUSTAH became MINUJUSTH. Then it became BINUH. BINUH does not have peacekeeping troops. It does have a strong police contingent but no peacekeeping. The Core Group stayed behind. I always say that there's a Core Group in every capital. It's perfectly normal for like-minded ambassadors to get together and share views and exchange and say stuff. What is maybe less normal is the importance we give it here. Frankly, I think it's a bit exaggerated.

Does the Core Group meet? Yes, it does. Sometimes we invite others. There aren't that many diplomats left here on the ground in Port-au-Prince, so we have to coordinate. We share information. We exchange contacts and knowledge. That's perfectly normal and healthy. You need to do that as a diplomatic community.

What we don't do is come out and express public opinions about everything that's going on in the country. There have been two Core Group communiqués in the last.... Let's go back to when the president was assassinated. There was one about Ariel Henry, and there was one about the fuel crisis we had in November 2021. That's it. The rest of the time we just compare notes and mind our own business.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That is, I think, one of the big concerns, of course: when the Canadian government website says that they have a mandate to serve as the voice. That's problematic. When we see a country desperately trying push for its own sovereignty, I think that it's important that we recognize that.

[Sébastien Carrière]

I think you're right, and I thank you for flagging it. I was not aware of this. I see Sébastien nodding. I think we're going to have a look at that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thanks.

One other question I have for you is, I guess.... You know, some of my colleagues brought up the Montana Accord; we've talked about the Montana Accord. Does Canada support the Montana Accord? I know you said it is complicated. You mentioned that you think that their voice or influence is not as strong in Haiti as it is outside of Haiti. Does the Canadian government support the asks within the Montana Accord?

[Sébastien Carrière]

Let me just clarify, you know, because I actually have friends in that accord, and I don't want to lose friends. I should have said “loud”. Their voices may be not as loud.

To me, it's not about supporting an accord or a party or someone else, frankly, at this point. To me, it's about supporting a Haitian-inclusive solution. They bring a very important part of the solution to the table. I talk to them all the time, all of them, because the Haitian political scene is pretty fluid. I think they are absolutely important, but they're not the only actors. I think the current government has to be part of the solution. There are multiple political parties here. Some of them are very important with large bases. They have to be part of the solution, too.

We talked a lot about the transition. There's going to be a campaign at some point. Maybe people who are not interested.... It's kind of like when you guys have a leadership race. Maybe whoever gets to lead the transition shouldn't be running for leader. Maybe that's a good model. Ariel Henry says he doesn't want to run for president. If others don't want to run for president, you know, why don't they all get together and organize the transition?

There are folks who do want to run for president. They aren't being shy about it. They are campaigning already. They've said they're staying out of the transition because they want to be president.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have one last question for you.

This is a humanitarian crisis. You've talked about how horrific it is on the ground.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Ms. McPherson, we're well over six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay.