Government Operations Committee on Dec. 13th, 2011

[Mario Dion]

Yes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I know you said you reached out to a number of open-government organizations, such as Democracy Watch and FAIR. It seems they're not entirely happy with your possible appointment. Can you explain to me what you think their major objections are and what your response would be?

[Mario Dion]

Their view, and I understand their view and respect their view, is that unless you're an “outsider”--i.e., somebody who has never worked in the public sector--there is a risk that you will not be objective, that you will tend to favour former colleagues or friends.

That's it in a nutshell. I think they've said relatively positive things about me, except insofar as I am a member of a class of people who they believe should not be the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I suppose the other side of that coin is that if you come from the public sector, you have more knowledge of how the system functions.

[Mario Dion]

And you can take preventative steps, and you can understand the psychology much more than can somebody who comes from outside.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You have 45 seconds left, if you can think of anything else to fill the time.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

The questions and the answers were so crisp and concise that it is the end of my turn.

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I see you've managed to achieve what you set out to achieve. That's very good.

For the Conservatives, we have Scott Armstrong for five minutes.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dion, thank you for being here.

In your time as interim commissioner, after taking over what was highly criticized.... And it's highly political right now and politically toxic that you've gone in and taken this on. It's a huge challenge, and I wish you the best of luck.

In your interim role and based on the experience you have had so far, you talked briefly about some structural changes you've already made--for example, the spot checks. You might want to elaborate a bit more on those and maybe talk a bit about what further structural changes you are planning to make now if you are successful in getting the permanent role, which we assume you will be. Can you elaborate on those, please?

[Mario Dion]

I'm not planning any further structural changes at this time, because I think the organization needed and still needs some stability. So unless there is a reason.... There will be changes in the future, obviously, but none that are required at this point in time. I think we're merely starting to implement the management model we created in the last year. The spot checks are one example of one thing that we have not done yet, except insofar as before, with the 228 files concerned.... We've done that. We've done more than a spot check: we've reviewed each and every one of them.

I don't anticipate any big change except the help and assistance from somebody not involved in the decision-making change in any way. We will do that. We will define the type of person we're looking for. We will staff the position, because I think it's required. We need a person who has an approach in a certain compassionate way: access to justice is what I'm talking about.

We're meeting with officials of le protecteur du citoyen, the ombudsperson in Quebec. They've been in existence for 40 years. They've done things in the recent past about access to their services. We want to see what they've done. We'll do the same with some of the other provinces and territories to define a model, an approach. That's lacking: it doesn't exist per se at this point in time. It's not done in a rigorous fashion.

But on everything else, I think we'll keep working with the structure and the people we have, and we will reassess in a year's time or two years' time. The main objective is to change the image of the office through action: coming up with actual cases of founded wrongdoing, with actual reprisal cases going to the tribunal. I think this will speak more than anything else.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you.

Canada is well known across the world for our democratic structures and principles and our institutions. Even though you're a young institution, which is growing in Canada, there are probably some things you could bring to other countries, other nations around the world, to demonstrate how this office can be effective. Do you have any ideas on how you can help other countries implement offices that are similar to what you're implementing?

[Mario Dion]

When I was appointed interim commissioner, I always used the analogy of how the house was on fire so I focused on extinguishing the fire. I didn't think much about the world and the neighbourhood and so on. If I am appointed in a permanent fashion.... There was some work done at the international level by my predecessor. I will read these files because I will have time to devote to it. I didn't in the first 12 months.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Great, so that's something that may be a goal for the future.

[Mario Dion]

I think there will be room to do that, there's no question.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

If you could put yourself ten years into the future and look back at the accomplishments that are going to be made over the next several years, can you tell me what you would expect to accomplish over the next decade?

[Mario Dion]

We've done focus groups recently, and it's clear that 80% of public servants do not even know we exist. So ten years from now, I would like to make sure that the vast majority of public servants are aware that we exist and aware of what we can do and of what the act can do for them. That will be my first objective.

I would like to see a tribunal dealing with 15 cases at the same time, because the volume will be there. If we're known, there will be a volume. Four hundred thousand people: it's a large public sector. So a tribunal...the machinery is there and it's awaiting the cases. We have two cases. The chair of the tribunal is extremely determined as well to make this work. Justice Martineau is the chairman.

So case reports to Parliament would become a bimonthly affair. Every two months or so, there would be something coming up to Parliament. It's not that I wish wrongdoing to happen; I'm just being realistic. With 400,000 people and $250 billion a year, I don't think it's too much to anticipate this type of volume ten years from now.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Right.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

About seven seconds.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

That's just time to say thank you.

Thank you, Scott.

Now we're back to the NDP and Denis Blanchette. You have five minutes, Denis.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank our guest, Mr. Dion.

We have spoken at length about your first 18 months, but I would like to talk about the next seven years.

During your time as acting commissioner, you have plugged holes, if you allow me to use that expression. You consider that the holes are sufficiently plugged and that the processes are all set.

I would like us now to take a closer look at the last paragraph of your presentation. What commitments are you prepared to make to us to ensure that the organization is dynamic, that it restores the trust of the Auditor General and also of the public servants and the public? So far you have essentially addressed the concerns of the Auditor General, but now we are talking about the public, especially public servants.

What do you intend to do? What are your specific commitments?

[Mario Dion]

I am focusing on having greater transparency than there has been in the past. Earlier, I mentioned that we will adopt a series of policies. We will explain how we reach our decisions. For example, the legislation provides that the commissioner may refuse certain claims, in certain circumstances. We will adopt policies that will specify the circumstances under which the commissioner will not usually deny claims. We will provide a list of the cases. We will indicate what the commissioner usually expects. We have to educate the claimants on what they can expect. This will be published on the Web. We will adopt these policies in consultation with the advisory committee in order to get the opinion of the unions, the Treasury Board and the NGOs. We will post them one by one on the Web.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

The Auditor General's report indicates that the commissioner was reluctant to conduct investigations into the disclosure of wrongdoing and to refer complaints about reprisals to the courts. How will you settle this matter?

[Mario Dion]

There were seven investigations in the beginning. Mr. Boulerice talked about the seven investigations under my predecessor. Today, there are 35. I am not so reluctant to conduct investigations. I am less reluctant now because we are sufficiently staffed; we have doubled in size.