Government Operations Committee on Feb. 1st, 2012

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Well, I have to admit to being somewhat shocked by the fact that you received a major report, which cost a significant amount of money to the government to produce—but wasn't by the government—and yet the impact of this report is going to be felt most by those employees who are working in IT systems and who are also your members. It's starting the consultation process on a very bad footing.

What kinds of pressures did you have to actually use in order to get the consultation started in a healthy way?

[Gary Corbett]

We wrote letters to the ministers, basically contacting the senior management and expressing our desire to work with them, as we have done with the government on past occasions to look for solutions. It was very much letter writing. Sometimes the press would ask how it was going, and we would say how it had been going, which was less than we expected. So they were the common pressures that we normally use if we're concerned: we write letters.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

We've taken a look obviously at the report and a few other articles, and the least of our estimates is that the 308 centres—many of which are in very remote regions in our country, provide not only essential services but quality services, and have connections to the community—will be reduced from 308 to 20.

Do you have any confirmation of that? What kind of impact could that elimination have on services to Canadians?

[Ryan Campbell]

The communication given by the federal government is that the data centres are going to go down to about 20, I believe. Presently, we have data centres all over the country: east coast, west coast, the territories.... The trend, when these kinds of consolidations happen, is to move jobs from the smaller, more remote locations to the more central locations. And as Gary has said before, these remote communities generally depend on these jobs more than the central locations where the jobs tend to gravitate. So what's going to happen to those communities is a big concern for us.

[Gary Corbett]

Speaking in terms of economies, as I mentioned earlier, one job or ten jobs in a community of 300 is a huge percentage and is hugely important. These are good jobs. They contribute to local economies.

In terms of economies of scale, that same number of jobs in a large centre doesn't have a similar economic impact.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

I want to narrow down to a comment you made with regard to the use of consultants and subcontracting and the relationship between that and transparency, and also between that and accountability.

Across this government they make savings in one way but then they spend in another--you know, we might as well cut jobs in the public service and we might as well give that money to friends in the private sector.

What I'd really like to know is when it comes to accountability, from your perspective, what makes a public service more accountable, as opposed to consultants?

[Gary Corbett]

It's been said that a consultant is someone you give your watch to and then pay him to tell you the time. I think there's a lot of truth in that.

Any time you are contracting a job in the federal public service, that person doesn't have the duty of loyalty any more. We expect certain provisions in Canada, bilingual provisions, say. All those things go out the window. In addition, the concept of the middleman comes up, and then the middle middleman. So in a sense, the person doing the work at the very bottom is really making a very low wage. And if that's going to be in a community, then the community suffers as well.

It's spiralling downward, if you ask me.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Your time is up, Mathieu. Thank you.

Next, for the Conservatives, Jacques Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the witnesses for being here. Mr. Corbett, my question is for you.

I understand that you represent senior professionals. In Shared Services Canada, are those professionals going to have the opportunity to develop all the new combined systems? Do they face challenges in becoming involved in the implementation of the new systems?

[Gary Corbett]

As we said, the concept of shared services is a good one to create a new environment where we're going to be able to save money, where people have mobility. There will be opportunity, but we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. We want to make sure we can create the shared services properly first, and until we get there, there won't be any opportunities.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

I think I am going to repeat the question.

Among the members of the public service and its information technology professionals, is there the staff and the expertise necessary to get this new project up and running? Are the people working in the public service able to make the most of being part of a new project like this? I doubt if they have ever worked on a project that will bring 300 systems together.

[Gary Corbett]

We do have the expertise within the public service, and I'm sure that's the direction in which Shared Services Canada is trying to move, to bring that expertise to bear to make these changes. Once this is set up, and as it gets set up, there will be opportunities for IT professionals.

Again, we're talking about the manner in which it is done and the manner in which we get there and whether that manner will slow us down or whether we can achieve it. We don't want to waste, and my members don't want to be involved in wasting taxpayers' money either, but unless you consult at the front end, provide things like human resources plans, budgets, we're really working in the dark to help make this a reality.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

How long could this process of implementing the new system last?

[Michel Rodrigue]

As an example, it has now been six months since Shared Services Canada was established and it is still in the very early stages. The infrastructure is not really in place. The transfers have been made, but the work is being done as it was done in the past. So it will take a very long time.

According to the PricewaterhouseCoopers study, the work, and the savings, are going to start happening in 2015-2016. However, the government is looking for savings starting in 2014 in order to contribute to deficit reduction. So there are major problems and challenges in this area. I feel that working together with our members and going out to get the expertise will be important. The CS group has been making recommendations to the government since 2004-2005 in various forums, pointing out that the numbers of different systems and the increasing numbers of different platforms are not efficient. They cost taxpayers money and we should be moving towards shared services.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Could you tell me when the consultation process with public service professionals started?

[Michel Rodrigue]

Really, it was just consultation about solving the major staff-transfer problems, the internal stuff. There has still been no consultation about the key strategic issues, like the way to achieve the savings and how to get a 30% reduction in services that the private sector charges an arm and a leg for.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Do the professional services in the public sector have the expertise necessary to complete this entire project?

[Michel Rodrigue]

In our opinion, yes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You have 15 or 20 seconds, Jacques.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

We are talking about highly qualified professionals, information technology engineers and so on.

Mr. Corbett, you were wondering earlier about whether people might find it hard to get involved now if there were going to be too many people later. I do not understand why you are telling us that those people would be financially affected if engineers are so sought after. Is the market for information technology engineers so saturated that the people would not be able to find work? I do not understand. As I see it, people like that are in just as much demand in the public service as they are in the private sector. Could you clarify that for me?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Give a very brief answer, please, Mr. Corbett.

[Gary Corbett]

The brief answer is that I don't really understand the question. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I'm afraid that concludes our time.

Is there anyone else who would like to respond to Mr. Gourde?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Did you understand my question, Mr. Rodrigue?