Evidence of meeting #41 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Okay.
Does the secretariat that looks after interprovincial conferences have its own administration on that also, or is that under you guys?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office
No, it has its own administration.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
So this agency that spends $6 million on conferences has its own administration?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Finance and Corporate Planning Division, Privy Council Office
Yes, it does.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Can we not amalgamate that somehow into somebody else's job? That's just a point I want to make.
I like the wording, “Multilateral meetings, first ministers, ministers, deputy ministers planned and conducted flawlessly...”. Wow. That's pretty good, eh?
Anyway, I'm looking at the plans and priorities, which I know will be coming out in a little while. How does PCO evaluate itself? Your job is to give advice to the Prime Minister and cabinet. How do you evaluate whether or not you're doing a good job?
4:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
I'm going to start off with that, and then I'll ask Mr. Bélisle and Mr. Pentney if they want to add anything.
We have a framework of mechanisms to give us continual feedback on how we're doing. That includes reporting to Parliament through the DPR and the mechanisms that are provided in there. Like all departments in town, we also have an external audit committee, an audit committee on which we have external members. There are three members external to the government who sit on PCO's audit committee. In fact, I'll be spending the day with them tomorrow as they go over how we're doing. Those conversations, I can assure you, are candid and direct. Obviously, we work with the Auditor General on any questions that he might have or any studies he is doing.
I'll just ask Bill and Marc if they want to add anything to that.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultations, Privy Council Office
I'll just add that we have opportunities for relatively direct feedback from our main customers and clients on a weekly basis.
More seriously, there's a set of objectives that are agreed on as we go forward, in terms of our advice. We're not in the business of programming. We don't measure our service to Canadians, and in that way it is a service that is internal to the government and the Prime Minister.
But in terms of supporting the Prime Minister in his role, and in terms of supporting the clerk in his role, as head of the public service, as Michelle said, we measure, to the extent we can, and we seek feedback on a regular basis. We're pretty hard on ourselves as well, in terms of assessing.
Having said that, the last couple of years have provided other opportunities to look very hard at what we do. With the nature of the budget changes that we've been living through, that are being reported, and that we're speaking about here, we have had to step back and ask some hard questions about what we do and why we do it.
So we are different from other departments in our ability to conduct evaluations of the normal course of a program or things like that, but I can assure you we have opportunity to get feedback and to assess how well we are doing in playing that role.
4:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
The other thing I would add is that, of course, like all departments we are subject to the management accountability framework, or MAF, process the Treasury Board conducts on an annual basis, the results of which for the last year have just been delivered.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you.
I'd like to ask you a question about your policy on travel expenditures. There was a case, I think it was in October of last year, when Minister Penashue and his chief of staff received passports, for which I think the government paid $315 each. I think at that price it means they had one-day service, because that price is high.
My first question is whether it's acceptable, under PCO rules, to pay these high prices for passports.
4:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
The Privy Council Office is governed by Treasury Board directives on travel, as are all departments. Ministers' offices are governed by the Treasury Board document for spending in ministers' offices.
I have no knowledge of the particular case you are speaking of. I will be happy to see what I can find and do any specific follow-up.
One of the particular features of the Privy Council Office is that we support a portfolio of ministers. They have pretty rigorous schedules and are often called upon to do things at the last minute. We work within the rules to support them, so that they can do their jobs.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
I understand that if the minister and his chief of staff had to travel overseas the next day that might be reasonable, but the records show they had no international travel in the time elapsing after this money was paid. So it seems to me it's a total waste of taxpayers' money to pay the sky-high price for a 24-hour service when you're not going anywhere internationally.
My question is, would that be allowed under the rules? It seems a flagrant waste of money. Can you get back to us if you don't have the answer today?
4:10 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
I'd be happy to see what further information I can get for the member on this case.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you.
Do I understand that the PCO is retaining control over e-mails or communications that are secret and top secret? I think I heard you say that. Is that correct?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultations, Privy Council Office
There's a separate system within government for the limited group of departments and agencies that are in regular.... Because the national security adviser to the Prime Minister and foreign and defence policy are housed within the Privy Council Office, they participate in a subset of government departments that deal with e-mails, and there will be a continuation of that system. That system within government departments and with some partner countries has not been transferred to Shared Services Canada at this time.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
When you say you'll get back to us, can I ask when? In how many days? I'm going to be suggesting later that there are reasons not to vote on the estimates today. There is still time.
How long will it take for you to get this information back to us that you don't have today?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultations, Privy Council Office
We will endeavour to provide the information without delay. I can't be more specific than that.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
What does “without delay” mean? Within a week, within three days, within ten days?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultations, Privy Council Office
We'll look at the information and get back to you as quickly as we can. I'm sorry, I can't provide a more specific time.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Okay.
I also have a question about Elections Canada. Most of the cuts were phased in gradually. Elections Canada was virtually alone, I think, in having all of its $7 million cut, front-end loaded, in year one. This seems a pretty austere situation. Are you able to provide any information on why those cuts were front-end loaded in that way?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Plans and Consultations, Privy Council Office
Perhaps returning to the earlier question of Member Duncan as well, as you know, in our government system there are a number of independent agencies that are related to the executive and funded by the executive, but they fundamentally operate without the kind of political direction and control that's normal in a ministerial line accountability. Then there are officers of Parliament, like the Chief Electoral Officer and others, who are even more independent, in a sense, and have to report to Parliament through a minister. That's the system that was established and abided by.
It would be neither appropriate nor suitable for us to be here to speak to the budgeting process of the Chief Electoral Officer or those other independents. I regret that if there were questions that representatives of those departments and agencies.... I'll speak for them and say I'm sure they would be happy to appear before you and answer the questions you have. This would be true for other departments and agencies, as was noted, in our system of governance.
I know the committee is looking at the estimates process. You can decide if, through that process, you would like to make some changes. But in our system those independent officers submit budgets through ministers. That's effectively how our system works. We cannot speak to the decisions and choices that were made by the Chief Electoral Officer.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
That is your time as well, John. Thank you very much.
Finally, for the Conservatives, we have Scott Armstrong.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for your presentation.
Looking back over time, and compared to what your estimates are projecting for this year, I have a couple of questions. I want to first make sure I'm comparing apples to apples here.
In 2005-06, it appears that PCO had financial resources of about $149 million. Looking forward in the estimates this year, it's about $127 million. When you factor in inflation, I believe that would be a significant reduction in what you're spending.
Am I accurate in comparing those two numbers?