Evidence of meeting #100 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agile.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dan Murphy  President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

12:05 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

No, no, I think you can do RFPs with a much tighter and more light approach, where you say, “We're trying to get these outcomes”, and industry, who's going to provide the solution, can come back and say how. That process doesn't have to take long. If I'm not telling you exactly how to do everything, then it's not going to take me three months to create the RFP: “I want to have this outcome.”

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

So it would be a very simple, “Here's our outcome.”

12:05 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

Very simple.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

It might have to be Canadian-made, or you might need—

12:05 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

Yes. They'll come back with the plan, and we'll say, “Okay, now we want to implement it. But we're not going to implement something for $500 million, we're going with $50,000.” And you know what? For the vendors, that's cheaper than having a team engaged for a year writing a response to an RFP, which costs $1 million.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Right.

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. Peterson.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Mr. Murphy, for joining us. It has been very informative. I have a few questions to ask in the five minutes I have here.

My understanding, from your presentation and my brief introduction to the agile concept, is that it's far more about people and way less about process.

12:05 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

From your experience, is there a certain type of person, do you think, who would be more willing to participate in an agile workspace than another person would? Are there skill sets that you need? Is it easy to identify those people when you want to change a workforce?

12:05 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

The transformation is the transformation of the people. When you start thinking differently about how you approach projects, that's the transformation. There are skills required around collaboration. When you go into an agile meeting, you don't tell everybody how you're going to do stuff. When you go into a team meeting you ask them, “We have this problem, how are we going to do it?” Then the ideas start coming forward, because if one person takes over.... There's all this training down at the implementation level, which exists today.

From a “people person” point of view, it's higher up the Maslow hierarchy where we're going to achieve outcomes. There's a video that I reference here from David Marquet, who used to be a naval officer. He ran submarines. It took a year for a captain of a submarine to understand every detail. You had to know everything about the submarine to run it. He was switched over to a new submarine. He didn't know anything about it. All of the team knew exactly what to do, but they were waiting for him to give them orders. He said, “I'm going to submerge the submarine now, what do you think?” And they'd say, “Sir, I don't know if that's a good idea.” Then he'd say, “Well, why?” They'd tell him. He turned it around. You can watch the video. It's excellent.

That's the kind of change. People who are involved in agile projects are getting things done. It's a much nicer place to work. It's less stressful. People are achieving outcomes, so they're rewarded. I've seen too many guys in government and the bureaucracy who run the soccer league, because that's where they get their sense of accomplishment.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Right.

Does agile need to be an enterprise-wide concept? Does it need to be enterprise-wide? I'm sure Cisco was. Are there ways to put this process into maybe one project in one organization? Would that work?

12:10 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

Yes to both. I think it has to be enterprise-wide and I think you need to start with one. The whole thing is that you start and it's a growth thing. You start with a seed, but after you start scaling up, you can run as Cisco did. You can run multiple initiatives in parallel. We would change the whole concept of the project management office into the value enablement office, because projects generally deliver scope, but in this case, with agile, we want to deliver value. We can see where we deliver scope in a lot of projects, but we don't get the value.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Let's say a project is under way and an agile team is implementing it. They're realizing that what they're doing is not going to get them to where they want to be. They need to change. This might mean that they're going to be late now, or they're going to be into a cost overrun.

12:10 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

If you're on an agile team, every two weeks there is a thing called a retrospective. At the end of two weeks, we have a little Lego block of value that we deliver and the team gets together and asks if they delivered the value they thought they were going to deliver. The answer is yes or no, and then they ask if they can do anything better on the next iteration to deliver a bit more. They have that discussion and then they go for another two weeks.

At the end of the quarter, we have a bigger retrospective, at maybe a more senior level, that asks, “Did we deliver the value and the outcomes that you were looking for? If not, why not? How are we doing on budget?”

The other thing I'll say about budget is that it's extremely predictable. I know that I have a team of five or six people running this. I know that this three months and the next three months will be probably within 10%. I get very predictable flow rates of budget allocation.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

My understanding, from reading the briefing materials that I've had a chance to read, is that the client is engaged in the process throughout under the agile method. You'd be reporting back to the client and getting their input at any stage you need to. How does that work in the government setting, when there's not necessarily a clearly identifiable client?

12:10 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

Oh, there's always the citizen. In the case of SSC, there's a department. When I did the network for Public Works, I talked to all the department network guys and asked how they liked their service. They said it was expensive. They'd like to get more bang for the same dollar. I asked if there was anything else. They said everything else was okay. So we went and did that, and then they all bought.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

So it's quite possible to implement here.

12:10 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

It's possible. The whole open government thing is to have direct dialogue with citizens through social media or whatever. Just get the dialogue so that you're not stabbing in the dark about what you're trying to do.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Right.

Thank you very much.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Mr. Weir.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK

Just to pick up on the point about open government, my sense of agile is that it's a very iterative approach. I can see at one level how that is consistent with the concept of open government, but I wonder if an emphasis on those kinds of face-to-face interactions as opposed to documentation would fit with the transparency and access to information requirements that exist within government.

12:10 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

We don't eliminate documentation completely. My ideal thing would be to have the user on the team at my team meeting, because there I have all the cross-functional components. I have operational people and developers and all the people I need to create the solution. Then we sit around and ask if the system that we built last week works. They're either ecstatic or they're not. We get that feedback and then we build some more.

I think whenever possible it's an absolutely mandatory requirement for agile that you have strong interface with the user or the payer of the system, the person who's buying or using it. They have to be on the team and engaged, and I think government can do that.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK

Sure.

I'd also like to ask you about agile in the context of contracting out. Phoenix was a contract with IBM, so one might argue that the problem wasn't just the lack of agile approaches in government but within IBM. I'm wondering, first, if agile is compatible with contracting out, and if the government should be looking to contract with firms that are already using agile.

12:10 p.m.

President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual

Dan Murphy

If I'm IBM—and I was there—and we get a large bid, and the bid's a 10-year bid worth $40 million to $50 million, we're going to bid on it. If we don't bid, we're out for 10 years. Then you look at the thing and ask if this bid makes any sense.

The vendors are really smart. They can't see all the requirements in this. We know there is a whole bunch of things they can't contractually get into this requirements document. So they go down to headquarters and say, “Here's the deal. This is a $40-million bid, but we know it's going to be $150 million. We either bid on it or we're out. But we can bid on it as a $150-million deal instead of a $50-million deal, which will allow us to bid at a lower rate.”

It's not that the vendors are evil. It's just that this is the environment you're giving them to respond to. If you ask them to respond to a national environment, they will.