Government Operations Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2017

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Okay. However, PCO is certainly one of the ones that have been adding salaries and adding employees all the time, so it might be a thought if we don't have some idea of what that cost is with what outcomes are.

Really, everything we do here is about outcomes. If we can't measure that because we don't have any costs and we're just saying, “Well, the existing people do it”, but while the existing people are doing it we're hiring more people and we've had an increase in salaries, there should be something for the committee to give us a bit of an idea of the effectiveness of that, because it is an internal issue.

Are there some thoughts that you would talk about? It really is about having someone on the outside rather than internally do those assessments. Through PCO, have there been discussions to the effect that this sounds like maybe not a bad idea? Should we actually have an outside agency look at that and do the measurement, and then have some cost assessment to it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Madam Ramcharan, I'm afraid you'll have to give the answer to that in written form to our committee.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Or it would be a yes or no.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You can only get away with that once or twice in a meeting.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you. Maybe I'll get another chance later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ms. Sansoucy, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you.

I'll continue with the questions I started asking the Privy Council Office representative, particularly on the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.

Ultimately, the role of the Privy Council Office was to provide financial and administrative support for the implementation of the

legal case management system.

Earlier, my questions related to the training that was offered to ensure that this system would be implemented successfully. However, this system is complex by its very nature. I'm coming back to this to allow you to respond.

I would like to know how much it cost to implement the system and what steps were taken to implement it properly.

[Kami Ramcharan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

There are two parts to the question. Was training provided for the system? The system that we used for the legal case management system is called Ringtail. It's a system that we use within government. It was procured for the commission of inquiry. We started the procurement in February, and it was put in place and available to them on May 1. As part of thinking about that system, we wanted to make sure that they had adequate training, so part of the contract that we put in place was to make sure that the company that has the software could provide training to the commission.

As soon as the commission is interested in taking on that training and getting more involved, they have a venue through which they can get that training, but they haven't started to fundamentally use that system just yet. As you know, they've been very busy, with the number of hearings, so they are going to have to think about how to do that, but there is a system and a process in place by which they can access training to use that software.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

This system will be used to analyze hundreds of thousands of videos, transcripts of electronic documents, articles and briefs. If I understand correctly, when the commission of inquiry is at this stage, it will have the financial support needed, and its staff will be properly trained to optimize the use of this system.

Is that correct?

[Kami Ramcharan]

Yes. We don't determine who gets the training or who uses the software. It will be for the commission to decide which of their people, whether it be two or three or 10 or 12, require the training and who will be using the software. What we do is make sure that they have access to the system, the software, and the licences so they can do that, and that the financing is there and available for them to use to order and access that.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Okay.

On another topic, I would like to know if the Privy Council Office plays a role in the commission of inquiry's work to encourage the participation of Canadians. In your presentation, you indicated that you had been involved in several consultations. You talked about openness and transparency. It is clear that you supported the consultation of as many Canadians as possible.

Do you also play a role in helping the commission of inquiry to encourage Canadians to participate in it?

[Kami Ramcharan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The commission of inquiry is different from the regular operations of the Privy Council. The commission of inquiry is set up as an independent commission. The role that PCO plays in that commission is really that of financial administrative support. We very much work in an arm's-length fashion in terms of what their work plan is, what they are doing, how they engage with Canadians, and their communications. What we endeavour to do is provide support from an administrative perspective when they say they want to do something, or they want to hire a person, or they want certain software or certain support. We try to make sure we get the mechanisms in for them, on a very quick basis, so that they can do that.

With any of the work the commission is involved with, they decide how to do it and how to structure it. The role of PCO in any commission of inquiry is really to let the commission have its independence and determine how to achieve its mandate in its terms of reference.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I understand the independence of the commission because that was clear. However, you have a support role. In your brief, you said you were there to support the Prime Minister. In fact, he said very clearly that this was the priority issue of his government. We are aware of the importance of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.

You have clear expertise in consulting Canadians and ensuring that all the tools are in place. With my question, I don't mean to interfere in the role of the commission of inquiry.

With your expertise, how will you support them in terms of the content and how to achieve it? I understand the concept of the independence of the content. As everyone knows, the transparency and openness cost $24.2 million. How can the expertise that has been developed support the important work of the national inquiry?

[Kami Ramcharan]

There's not just PCO involved. The Minister of CIRNA, Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, the new department that was created, has a role for non-administrative support to the commission. As you're aware, the department itself did a pre-inquiry process. It went out around the country to meet with families and individuals to understand better what's happening in the area of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. They have a role to play.

Since June, that department, PCO, and others have been coming together regularly to be available to the commission should it ask for some support, assistance, or guidance in terms of helping it achieve its mandate. I reiterate again that the commission is set up to be very independent. We only offer our support when asked. We rely on the commission to figure out its work plan, how it's going to do it, how it's going to achieve it, the people it's going to meet with, and how it's going to communicate its actions. It has terms of reference that are posted—I'm sorry, I don't have them with me—that give it exactly what it's expected to do as part of its mandate, the roles that we play in PCO, as well as the roles that the Minister of CIRNA plays in terms of its overall support.

We really try to not provide any policy-type expertise to the commission unless it specifically asks for it.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

It cost $34.4 million?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Our final intervention will come from Madam Ratansi.

You have seven minutes, please.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ramcharan, I have a few questions for you.

In your risk-based internal audit plan, it said PCO would complete a follow-up audit of information technology security in 2017-18 that was previously planned for 2016-17. Could you tell us what the status of this internal audit is? We're all very concerned. IT has been a boondoggle for just about everybody here, so could you give us an update on that, please?

[Kami Ramcharan]

I'd like to start by saying two things.

We had a preliminary audit that was conducted a few years ago. It identified a number of different opportunities for PCO to undertake in order to stabilize its information management and information technology system. That's a little bit of the reason that we've had so much funding come in: to help us actually do that. As of a few months ago, we have been able to address all of the previous audit recommendations associated with information management and information technology, so we're very pleased with that.

In terms of 2017-18 and the review that is proposed, again, that hasn't been undertaken as of yet. When you think about your areas of risk, IM and IT is always one of those areas of risk for departments, especially within the Privy Council Office where we want to ensure the safeguarding of information, of technologies, and of the materials that we have at our disposal. That will be started this fiscal year. It probably won't be completed until next fiscal year. Typically what we do with all of our audits, as well as the recommendations, is post them so that they're publicly available.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

In that process, would you be hiring external advisers or using internal expertise to manage your modernization process?

[Kami Ramcharan]

In terms of our IT modernization process itself, we will be hiring some professional services, people with expertise from the outside.

Because it's a large project that took place last year, and for the most part the significant spending is this year, we didn't hire permanent employees because it was such a defined time frame with regard to that. Most of the money that you see there for the funding really is related to outside contractors and outside professional services to help support us.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Is that a sufficient amount, or would you be coming back and asking for more?

[Kami Ramcharan]

This is a sufficient amount. We won't be coming back. Unless we were going to undertake a new initiative that we currently envision, we won't be coming back for more additional resources for IM and IT.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

In terms of the cybersecurity threat, I went to Bangladesh recently and I was given a loaner phone, because somehow Bangladesh is supposed to be a terrible country—I don't know. However, what I would like to know is whether there is any threat to our electoral system that you, PCO, or anybody has identified.

[Kami Ramcharan]

With regard to vulnerabilities associated with our electoral system, there is a variety of both paper-based and electronic systems that are used to carry out elections in Canada, which means there are potential cyber-threats that vary by jurisdiction. It's not just in one place where that exists. Since federal elections are largely paper-based, Elections Canada has a number of legal, procedural, informational technology measures in place to mitigate those potential threats. Political parties and politicians vulnerable to cyber-attacks, including cyber-espionage, information theft, spreading of misleading information, we see as the biggest risk, as opposed to an actual system of election.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Borbey, welcome back.

We have been listening to the President of the Treasury Board, who would like to see a wider diversity at the upper management level. I'm wondering if you have any statistics on how successful you have been in the ADM and DM positions, upper management, in terms of diversity, diversity meaning women, because generally we see that women are in positions but not in management positions. We'd like that gender balance, number one. Number two would be diversity meaning indigenous and other visible minorities. Do you have any statistics on that?