Evidence of meeting #111 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was company.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
We're probably about 65% federal government.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
12:30 p.m.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
It's a huge chunk, and it's interesting, because everyone knows that FoxWise is an indigenous company. We're expected to bid on set-asides. Then we spend all the time bidding on these set-asides, and there's a supply arrangement standing offer, but we don't get any work.
You really have to pick and choose and know your client and know whether they are going to use this or not. There's a huge expectation—and I'm probably not the only one—that if a set-aside comes out in IT, FoxWise is going to respond.
12:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and General Counsel, Gitpo Storms Corporation, As an Individual
First, I think the indigenous economy is still in its infancy. We have to have some way to let us get into the marketplace.
Second, from a business perspective, Gitpo Storms has been at this now for a couple of years; we're a pretty young company. Comments have been made to me. At one of our first meetings, Chief Coon Come, Chief Atleo, and Chief Mercredi said to me, well, there must be aboriginal business opportunities in the government. You know, they're used to government. We said there are, but we're not going to get anything, because in my experience, as I was telling you, it's been 20-some years, and I'm not getting a call.
We registered, and nothing happened in those few years, which I expected. Then we basically said that it's not going to happen.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
12:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and General Counsel, Gitpo Storms Corporation, As an Individual
Yes, you know, I—
12:30 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer and General Counsel, Gitpo Storms Corporation, As an Individual
In other circumstances.... I've had some meetings with the deputy minister of Industry Canada, John Knubley, whom I know from the east coast, in ACOA. I think he heads up ACOA now. Others have also told him this. He says they're trying to change it.
You have to give the benefit of the doubt. There was a silo thing happening before, and now apparently departments are talking. Indian Affairs, Industry Canada, and others are starting to talk and figure out how to move the yardsticks ahead. I don't want to speak for him at all, but what I gather is that he's basically saying this is a big supertanker that has to turn course. It doesn't turn just like that. It takes a long time to change it.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Mr. Weir, you have a three-minute round, and then we'll go back to our seven-minute presentations.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thanks very much.
As I think everyone knows, the federal government is splitting INAC into two different departments: Crown-Indigenous Relations on the one hand, and Indigenous Services on the other.
Which of those departments would you like to see administering the PSAB, or would you go the route alluded to by Madam Ratansi, putting it entirely within Public Services and Procurement?
Perhaps Seven Generations Energy could start.
12:35 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate, Seven Generations Energy Ltd.
That's a very good question. I don't know that I have the best answer for it.
From the procurement perspective, I think any time it's removed.... In terms of duty to consult in honour of the crown, it's a good thing.
Whether it should be in the mainstream is a different question. I don't know if that necessarily is something that will make a difference for us. I would have defer to the nations we work with, because they are the ones who would be most involved.
As long as there are the regulatory support and requirements so that there's flexibility—as I mentioned—built into whichever path it goes down, then I think that's going to be key for us, from a corporate standpoint. We do things not always because there's a regulatory requirement, but, as I said, because we are in the business of serving the needs of our stakeholders, and it's the right thing to do.
Working with communities is absolutely one hundred per cent the right thing to do. Building relationships is done at the most senior level. Being executive vice-president, I, along with our CEO, go out and meet regularly with the communities. We are actively involved. If government can also adopt a role of being more involved within the communities, they will have a better understanding of the uniqueness of those communities and what they need to be successful.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.
Mr. Willy, thank you for being with us through video conference. You mentioned a couple of recommendations. Could you elaborate on the second point with regard to mechanisms and a process for success, and where we could improve in terms of procurement?
12:35 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Des Nedhe Development
We look at the fact that PSAB has been focused primarily on the urban centres, so if you're in an urban centre close to the federal government, you can create those relationships with procurement managers. What we want to do is broaden that out so it's across Canada, so that somebody in the north end of Manitoba has the same opportunity as somebody in downtown Winnipeg. That's just around driving that accountability.
Once you set a target, you can't just set a target. You have to go out and find the best practices, so I would suggest—and you've suggested already—bringing in some of the private employers, the mining companies, to see what they've done. You're going to have to match some of the processes they have. That could be adding more points to the system than are currently allocated. It could be direct-source opportunities if you're working on a specific area's traditional ground.
The mining companies and the resource companies have many different processes that I think would work well for this group.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Ms. Ratansi touched on this a little bit, and others, please feel free to jump in. There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between INAC or PSAB and PSPC, or Public Works, as we see it. Would it be a positive for PSPC to take in PSAB within Procurement Canada so there is no disconnect between the two organizations? Do you see that as a favourable thing?
12:40 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Des Nedhe Development
Yes, I think it needs to be top down, and you've heard from Seven Generations Energy that their president is involved in creating relationships. This doesn't need to be packaged on the side and hidden within one department. It needs to be top down and driven. That's where you see success, so I think being within Procurement Canada would be seen as being top down and a step up from being hidden within INAC.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Targets are one thing, but how we measure targets is also important. The statistic you've shown us today, 0.46% of federal procurement, is completely unacceptable, but what we've heard from the department was a little different in terms of statistics. Yes, let's have targets, but let's make sure we—
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
—measure those targets properly.
Speaking on that, Mr. Damm, you've said yes, you do get standing offers or supply arrangements, but after that you don't get the opportunity to bid or you don't get selected. Is that right?
12:40 p.m.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
Yes. I think one of the major issues is that it's not a mandatory program; it's a voluntary program. PSAB and set-asides are voluntary. There's no such thing as a mandatory set-aside. You've proven that. I've talked to lots of departments on lots of opportunities. There are no mandatory set-asides. They don't exist, so this is a voluntary program.
I think the difference in the United States is that it's mandatory. I think that's the major issue, whether it's at INAC or PSPC. It needs to have legs. It needs to be a mandatory program, not a voluntary program. I think we'll see change if that happens.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
That's great. Thanks.
Mr. Chair, I think it would be beneficial for the committee to get the statistics from PSPC on how many aboriginal businesses are on standing offers or get to participate in supply arrangements or similar procurement vehicles. How many aboriginal businesses get selected from those standing offers versus the non-aboriginal businesses? Maybe we could work with the analyst and send a letter to the department so we could get those statistics.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
It shall be done.
Then we can compare those with what Mr. Willy found in his ATIP requests.
