Pardon?
Evidence of meeting #114 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #114 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:15 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Pardon?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
How did they do that successfully in the United States?
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It was a set-aside for SMEs—
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's okay.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
—for the indigenous we have a set-aside, and we find, in hearing from witnesses, that it's difficult. Either they are not aware or they don't have the capacity or resources, etc. It's easy to do a set-aside, but how do we fulfill that set-aside?
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I would suggest that the more transparent and the easier the language.... All the things you've mentioned are a must in order to engage more SMEs in the process. Certainly, on the aboriginal file, the ceiling is low; there's a concern about the amount of the contract.
I also think there's a communication issue here. Think about all those businesses that don't even think about the federal contract opportunities. The office of small business is doing great work, but I think a lot more work needs to be done.
Also, then, looking at the role of government to open up a 25% spend or some percentage of spend, which demonstrates a commitment to bring SMEs in proactively, I think is part of the solution.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
In the United States, how long did it take from setting up the set-aside to achieving that number?
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It has been an iterative process. It started after the war with vets, and then moved to disabled vets, and then to minority businesses and urban businesses, and then to women businesses 20 years ago. They've had a long legacy of building this program, but I'll give a caution to Canadians, because with respect to women-owned firms, it's a self-identified certification. If Allan owned a business, he could certify as women-owned as easily as I could.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Wow. We heard that. It's the same with indigenous.... There are audits once in a while, but there is no pre-clearance.
I do want to touch upon that, because I've asked other witnesses this. With the indigenous and with women it's based on ownership, but what would actually benefit society more? Would it be a figurehead like you owning it, but perhaps Allan doing all the work and the profit, or would it be a pro-rated scale that would deliver...? Maybe a gentleman owns it, but he's employing a majority of women in leadership roles. How do we set that up to best serve society as a whole, to not just tick a box and say, “Look, we have women ownership”?
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Just to address a couple of your comments, there's a trade-off to be made. One of the problems we learned about with the U.S. set-asides is there are really three stages.
The first stage, I think, is the commitment the U.S. government made and made public with respect to the 23% and the 5% spends. I think that's a very powerful motivator.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Just so you know, I'm going to let you finish up. You have two minutes.
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you. That's all I'll need.
Number two is the actual creation of the set-aside.
Number three, and most important, is how that set-aside is operated.
What we found, and indeed what the U.S. Government Accountability Office found, is that it wasn't policed, which touched on your last question. People would declare themselves as women-owned businesses when in fact they weren't, because the government didn't set up a mechanism to check. In fact, the 5% goal was achieved mainly through contracts let outside the set-aside. Our finding that the set-aside wasn't effective has been echoed by a couple of other pieces of work, but it's not a question of set-aside versus no set-aside. It's also very much a question of how the set-aside is organized and monitored.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Professor Orser, I'm wondering if I heard right. I thought I heard you say that the RFP process in the United States wasn't set up to serve taxpayers well. Did I hear that right?
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No. My suggestion is that I think Canadian taxpayers and small business owners would appreciate a more robust set-aside program that is monitored and that holds PSPC accountable to our targets.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Could I make one comment with regard to your questions?
11:20 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
You asked again about metrics. I think the tick-the-box “majority female-owned” is a simplistic solution. I think the percentage of women in leadership roles is certainly something that could be considered.
11:25 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It could be all the heterogeneity and the intersectionality of what it is to be a business owner.
The other point that Allan brought up is subcontracting. We know that women do not fare well. Often they're brought into contracts as subcontractors on the RFP, and then they fall off when the work is done. I think this is the kind of monitoring we need to deploy to ensure that we serve the mandate of whatever program emerges.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thanks very much.
You mentioned a survey of smaller enterprises here in Canada. Another study that our committee's looking at is one by the OECD, which suggests that small businesses have relatively good access to federal procurement in Canada. According to their definitions, about 40% of the value of Canadian government procurement goes to small and medium enterprises. I just wonder if you have any thoughts on that or if you know of any other international comparisons we should consider.
11:25 a.m.
Full Professor and Deloitte Professor in the Management of Growth Enterprises, Telfer School of Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Well, that is certainly another metric. It speaks to the volume of contracting dollars, but it doesn't speak to the number of firms. If this government is interested in engaging more SMEs as opposed to letting a higher percentage of contract to the same SMEs, I think there is merit in looking at both statistics.
