Okay.
Evidence of meeting #119 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #119 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
President, AdaptiveOrg Inc., As an Individual
It's all challenge-based procurement. In the U.S., there's a company called Wipro that used to be a software developer. They have a community of 1.4 million developers worldwide. They basically pull the challenges together through a portal and send them out, and they are bid on.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
We're out of time, but just getting back to the SMEs, from what Mr. Leduc and you were saying, simplification is the first big step we need to tackle.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
What the Agile method does is very interesting, but I would like to look at the other side of the coin. You all seem convinced, but for my part, I have serious doubts. I feel some resistance to change. I am more and more comfortable with this idea of resistance when I read on the Internet that, according to some, the Agile method is a cancer that must be eradicated. That's what somebody said a few years ago, especially about the development of infrastructure, technologies, software, and so on. It has been said that this was a waste of time during the scrums and that nothing concrete came of it.
That being said, from what I can see, you consider this method to be a panacea that we should have adopted a long time ago. You wonder why we did not do so, when the benefits are so clear. But I wonder whether it's not just trendy. Every manager needs measurable results, whether in the government or in a private company. They really need to have compelling results to prove to their shareholders or to the citizens, as the case may be, that they have made the right choices and that everyone is reassured about those choices.
The idea of reducing the 400-page tenders to 10 pages is appealing, but it's certainly not that simple. I have worked in the field of information technology in the past and I can tell you that there are many details to consider. I would like to see WiFi, but we are talking about the Canadian government and it should be implemented from coast to coast to coast. Right now, we are in a vacuum, way up in the air, in a sense. Could you give me concrete, specific examples of how this method would change our lives as managers? You could tell us how long it takes to implement—three to five years, for example—and whether we need to hire adequate staff if our resources are insufficient.
My question is very broad and I leave it open, but I need reassurance. I am still looking for solutions.
12:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Policy, Information Technology Association of Canada
In my opinion, the reason why the private sector is so keen on the Agile method is because it has significantly contributed to its success. Our banks, for example, which are very large companies, have found that adopting the Agile processes had a direct effect on the ability to save a lot of money.
If we bring the whole team together from the outset in a room to make a decision, we avoid any problems that may arise. The idea is to bring together all the members of the team—lawyers, engineers, procurement officials, and so on—for half a day to determine our objectives and procurement needs.
12:15 p.m.
Vice-President, Government Relations and Policy, Information Technology Association of Canada
No. This is what makes things more challenging, even today. In the government, for example, when an operational unit needs something, it submits a request to the technology group, which then goes to procurement officials. They turn to the lawyers to see whether they have the right to proceed with the procurement. If lawyers conclude that it is problematic, the request goes back to the technology group and then to the operational unit. The process then starts all over again from the beginning.
There was no meeting with the entire team in one room at the same time, and as a result, there are new delays when, for example, lawyers come back three months later, saying that there is a small problem and it is impossible to proceed. If that had been brought up at a meeting at the outset of the process, the situation could have been very different.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Is it not a leadership problem to begin with?
The leadership, not the method, is the issue. Whether it's the ISO 9001:2000 or ISO 9000:2015 method, the idea is to bring everyone together. We proceed step by step. However, I can tell you that everything is written down with ISO methods. This seems to be less so in the case of the Agile method.
Do you want to make any comments, Ms. Tisdale?
12:15 p.m.
Managing Partner, Government and Public Sector, Ernst and Young LLP
I'm sorry; I can't.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Unfortunately, at this point we don't have time for an answer.
Go ahead, Mr. Blaikie.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
I'm going to come back to the theme of accountability, because I'm interested in this problem. The language is great. If it's in the private sector and people want to take a certain kind of risk, then they take that risk and they are responsible for the consequences. In the public sector, you need a way of reporting on why you think it's a reasonable risk. You need some evidence on what you expect to get back for that risk, and you need to be able to quantify it for people.
On top of that—and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, because you're the industry experts—it seems to me that private companies relate differently to other private companies as clients, when they're providing services to other private companies, than they do with government. The partnership model within the private sector can work, but this model doesn't necessarily transfer to the public sector, because the public sector can be seen by some companies as an unlimited source of income. If you're building a relationship and you're on a team and you can lead some of those government folks on the team to think they need to go down one road a little more, or down another road, and in the end it doesn't work out, then you can just keep working at it, because the problem has to be solved and you're never going to run out of money.
How does that affect the dynamic of trying to implement this kind of solution with a public sector partner as opposed to private sector partners?
12:20 p.m.
Managing Partner, Government and Public Sector, Ernst and Young LLP
That's a lack of discipline, and it's inexcusable. It doesn't matter whether it's private sector or public sector. An agile approach still has to be disciplined. In a way, it would reduce your risk, because after every 30 days or 90 days you have to prove you have delivered value. You have to prove what you're going to accomplish in the next 30 days. You either do it or you don't. If you don't, you probably need to shut it down.
There is a lot more accountability in a process like that. You're clear about what you're going to deliver and you have to do it on regular tight intervals. This way, you can only go a month off the rails, whereas on an 18-month or five-year waterfall project, you don't know whether you're even close until the switch goes on. It has to be a disciplined process.
People think agile is just making it up as you go along. It's not meant to be like that.
12:20 p.m.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
In Winnipeg, we see some design-build contracts with the city where the make-it-up-as-we-go-along approach was essentially what it was, and it cost a lot.
12:20 p.m.
Managing Partner, Government and Public Sector, Ernst and Young LLP
That's not agile's fault. That's just poor discipline.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Colleagues, if there is a willingness, we certainly have enough time for three more interventions. Otherwise, we can go straight to committee business and excuse the witnesses. Is there willingness for more questions from the government side?
12:20 p.m.
A voice
Yes.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to welcome you all back.
By way of background, I've implemented a lot of large business transformations, whether focused on procurement, the human chain, or the supply chain. I have an extensive background in supply chain business transformations, and I'm familiar with a lot of the challenges that have been raised.
Business transformations take on a life of their own. They could be up to five years. You break them into smaller chunks and you have projects. At the outset, you define your requirements. You establish a set of risks and you mitigate risk as the person who is overseeing everything, so that the challenges raised, whether they're prescriptive, whether they're rigid, are all valid.
One of the points raised was along the lines of what I had done before with some success. It was the strategic fitness assessment mentioned by Mr. Akrouche. I'd like to see whether we can apply some of that concept to agile, specifically on risk management. At the end of the day, whether we simplify the process or make it collaborative and get the talent, government is going to make sure the risk is managed.
Mr. Akrouche, can you tell us how to use this strategic fitness assessment to focus on prescriptive outcomes rather than prescriptive requirements? This would be a help in achieving a successful outcome at the end.
12:25 p.m.
Managing Partner, Strategic Relationships Solutions Inc.
The idea really stems from the fact that the vendor that is going to do the best job is the vendor that has its corporate strategy, its capabilities, its resources, its assets, its soft skills, and its management preference in a much better alignment with your stated outcome than the other vendors. The idea is to assess these against your strategic outcome.
By the way, we talk about outcomes as if they're static. Your outcomes within themselves are not static, but maybe you have some target outcomes based on your current understanding of what you want done.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
The strategic fitness assessment is only focused on the vendor, not the group as the agile concept support that will bring the legal and the procurement officers, the business, the SMEs, and the vendor—
12:25 p.m.
Managing Partner, Strategic Relationships Solutions Inc.
No, it's not about that. It's not about how we work together. That's in the relationship management framework. The strategic fitness assessment assesses the....
During the evaluation, how are you going to know whether this vendor is better than this vendor or that vendor, and in relation to what? In the past, we've used the rear-view mirror. We said, “You must have done this before somewhere else.” We used past experience as an indicator of future performance, which is not always true.
What we want to do is be able to evaluate the ability of a consortium or a vendor to deliver on our expected outcomes. It's one thing to write a one-pager, but we need to be able to test their abilities, and it's not apples to apples, because they're not apples to apples. Vendor A has a different solution. This guy has an orange, and that one has an apple. You need to have a mechanism to be able to say that this apple is better than that orange for your outcome.
12:25 p.m.
Managing Partner, Government and Public Sector, Ernst and Young LLP
I think it's agreed that it's people who deliver projects, not firms. It's going to come down to the 10 critical people on that team, or however many there are, so it's about making sure that you've spent the time doing your due diligence on the people, on the cultural fit, on the alignment of values, and on whether they're going to show up week after week. If they don't, then you may need to switch teams. I would really take a long, hard look at the individuals, not only the ones you're putting on your home team, but also the ones you're going to be partnering with externally, because at the end of the day, if you get that right, that's 90% of it.