Evidence of meeting #120 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Pagan  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Renée LaFontaine  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Marcia Santiago  Executive Director, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yaprak Baltacioglu  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and my thanks to our witnesses for being here.

Ms. Baltacioglu, I too will get on the train to wish you good luck in your future endeavours and a happy retirement, if there is such a thing.

One of the questions I didn't get to ask Mr. Pagan previously was about the pilot project at Transport Canada. What could our committee do to build on the pilot project? Do you foresee any other departments embarking on this purpose-vote structure? I want to make sure I understand correctly—and I'm quoting a 2012 report—that this would trigger about 593 votes if it were implemented at large. It may have changed now, but I'm wondering how we can help.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I can turn this back. Would there be consensus among committee members for seeing more of that? Has the Transport Canada pilot benefited you as parliamentarians in following the money and feedback? For instance, InfoBase is an example of a tool. It would be great to have feedback.

Has the Transport Canada pilot helped you and would you like to see it expanded? I would turn that back to you and our colleagues. If there's a consensus and an interest, that would help inform our thinking. The objective is more transparency and more accountability to Parliament and our citizens. Is it useful?

We did a demonstration of InfoBase to your Senate colleagues and they found it very valuable. Maybe we should do an InfoBase demo here, because it really is a big help.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

With Transport Canada, there's a seamless transition toward a purpose-based vote structure. There were no issues there. Would you anticipate potential problems with other departments or agencies?

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Brian Pagan

In fact, that would be very much the reason that we would propose to approach this as a pilot, to make sure that we had a measured approach in proceeding and that we could, in a very limited way, test all of our assumptions in the application of this.

Just to make it very concrete, when we talk about purpose-based votes, just using TBS as an example right now, we have $919 million in supplementary (C)s that we're requesting. That is spread through existing votes, our operating vote, and some votes that we administer on behalf of the public service as the employer.

In a pilot of a purpose-based approach, we would take our new results framework, where we have defined roles as the employer, as the expenditure authority, and as the regulatory authority, and we would present the same items, but according to those roles. The vote would be according to our core responsibility as employer. The idea is that, as the president says, it would allow committees and stakeholders to maybe follow the money better in terms of the key responsibilities, the key activities of departments.

When we presented the ideas last year, as I think the committee recalls, there was lots of discussion around timing, and unfortunately, we really never got past a decision on timing, so we would welcome a report or recommendation as to whether this should be pursued. We do have some ideas about how we could do that, but we did not feel that there was any consensus to expand the pilot at this time.

12:35 p.m.

Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Yaprak Baltacioglu

Also, if you think about the purpose-based votes, if the purpose is not clear, then it really doesn't matter how much money you've attached to a purpose if it is not understandable, so this year we put a lot of effort behind the departmental results framework.

Mr. McCauley asked who was scrutinizing this. We spent endless hours trying to make sure the language is clear, that not only we understood it but, we're hoping, that parliamentarians will clearly understand it, and more importantly, that Canadians will understand it. It should say what the money spent will do, and it should have measures around that.

If we can get the frameworks right, then it's easier to attach the purpose-based votes. We're trying to get the purpose right and the votes have to follow the purpose.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

The other question I have is whether there are any thoughts about.... I've looked. I've surfed the InfoBase website, and I think it's a great tool. It's a great start, and I know there's always room for improvement.

The issue that I could see coming up, and maybe you will correct me if I'm wrong, but on direct program spending, I think Canadians would be interested to know how much funding is dedicated to serving Canadians. I see that we have access to the numbers, even by age of employees working in a department, but on the direct spending, we don't have access to how many Canadians it serves. Is that something you guys are working on?

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

One of our mandate commitments is.... The service agenda of government is being led by Treasury Board, but one of the big parts of it is that you can't talk about government services today without talking about digital services. Right now we're a Blockbuster government serving a Netflix citizenry, and we have to up our game in terms of digital services.

Canadians wonder why they can't get the same quality of service from their government when they renew a passport as they've come to expect from Amazon when they buy something. We set up over the last year the Canadian digital services unit, which is modelled after the U.S. government digital services unit and the U.K. government digital services unit.

The U.S. one was set up by President Obama in 2013, and that's because on October 1, 2013, Obamacare was introduced in the U.S. On that day, 4.7 million Americans tried to register for health care on HealthCare.gov, and only six Americans succeeded. There was a big screw-up, and sometimes big failures create the environment for new start-ups, and that's what we're doing in terms of this start-up.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will now go to our five-minute round.

Mr. McCauley, I guess you're sharing your time with Mr. Deltell.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'll be very brief. Minister. Thank you for committing to come back to discuss whistle-blowers. People's lives are still being destroyed. There are lives being destroyed by lack of proper whistle-blower protection.

We have a motion on hand right now that we submitted February 5:

That the Committee invite the President of the Treasury Board to provide a briefing on the progress made by the current government in implementing the recommendations made by the Committee in its report to Parliament on strengthening the Public Service Disclosure Protection Act, to better protect whistleblowers who speak out against wrongdoing in their departments, and that the meeting be held no later than March 29, 2018.

This is the same motion that we brought in about two months ago that the government side voted down to prevent Mr. Brison from attending, so I'd like to put through this motion now and have a recorded vote on it.

Then we could move back to the estimates, seeing that the minister has kindly agreed to come back.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Yes, Mr. Drouin.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

For March 29, there are two weeks that we are not here, so can you be flexible on that date?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

It's up to the minister if he can commit. Suggest an alternative and let's move on. Get the minister to commit and come back.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Keep the date flexible. It's been a while since I have done my scheduling, and every time I insert myself into my schedule, things get screwed up.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

How about by summer break?

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

That would be great. Thank you.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Okay, and do you want a recorded vote?

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Yes, please.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I think we need to vote on the amendment first.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Oh, sorry. Yes, you're absolutely right.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

If there's consent, then I don't think we need a vote. Everyone's in agreement.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

I will read the motion as amended:

That the Committee invite the President of the Treasury Board to provide a briefing on the progress made by the current government in implementing the recommendations made by the Committee in its report to Parliament on strengthening the Public Service Disclosure Protection Act, to better protect whistleblowers who speak out against wrongdoing in their departments, and that the meeting be held no later than Thursday, June 14, 2018.

(Motion as amended agreed to)

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'll turn it over to Mr. Deltell.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Deltell.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for welcoming me to your committee.

Mr. Minister, it's always a pleasure to see you.

Good afternoon, Ms. Baltacioglu. Thank you for your 30 valuable years of public service. I guess that means that, at the time, we hired people as of the age of 10. At least, things have changed since.

12:40 p.m.

Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Yaprak Baltacioglu

Thank you very much.