Evidence of meeting #120 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brian Pagan  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Renée LaFontaine  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Marcia Santiago  Executive Director, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yaprak Baltacioglu  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Yes. I know.

Minister, we spoke to Mr. Pagan earlier about this and butted up against who's writing the editorial content of both the departmental reports. I'm glad the departmental reports are going to be released at the same time as the estimates.

I will read out to you some of the comments in here. There's money for the “smooth functioning of the Courts and to promote greater access to justice for all”. Under the Department of Canadian Heritage, there's funding to “amplify the office of the Governor General, and help build a stronger Canada”. It seems that we're moving away from transparency by writing what looks like political content and not accounting content to be delivered to Canadians.

I will go back to the departmental reports I was mentioning earlier. I will use Public Services and Procurement as an example. In her report, she doesn't mention Phoenix at all, but she goes on about the Canada Post report where part of her achievement is thanking the committee for the work they did. It seems quite odd that a departmental report put together, meant for transparency in terms of where Canadians' money is being spent, is written about such frivolous stuff, but also misses such important stuff as Phoenix.

Who is responsible? I guess it's the ministers, but who's overlooking to make sure they're delivering on your promise in pillar four about providing high-quality information and performance targets and results in departments?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

You used a couple of specific examples there. One was “smooth functioning” of the court system and “justice for all”. Would you imply that those are partisan things? I would think that is something that all—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

They're not partisan things, but they don't provide transparency on where the money is going. I think you know that and you're trying to make this a partisan issue and trying to make it appear that we don't agree with justice.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

No, but respectfully—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm just asking who's writing the editorial, and it seems to be politicized by you.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

What is political about the smooth functioning of the court system or justice for all?

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

You promised to provide transparency for the estimates. That's wonderful. We support that, but the writing does not explain where this money's going.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Again, not to be a stickler, but how is the smooth functioning of the court system or justice for all inconsistent with transparency? I think it's a pretty reasonable description of what we or all parties—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Where's the $3.5 million of that going then? You can't tell.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Now you have a question.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm saying that should be in the line. Provide more detail for the $3.5 million and get away from the fluffy stuff. I'd like to see the transparency that you've committed to, which is wonderful, and I support you, but we'd like to see in the estimates the commitment followed through on, which is the transparency and the openness, so that a parliamentarian or a Canadian can pick up the estimates and say, we have $3 million, where's that going for the Department of Heritage? Oh, it's amplifying an office.

We'd like to see the details. We'd like to see the commitment of that money—

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

In terms of the language—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

But let's go to the departmental reports.

Who's going to oversee to ensure that the departmental reports are delivered as you intended in your pillar? I support your pillar three 100%—it's a great pillar—but how are we going to ensure that's actually getting done?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

I understand.

In terms of the language, you'll see a strong correlation between estimates language and budget language because—

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I was going to mention that, but—

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

—actually, the idea here is that the estimates reflect the programs described broadly in the budget, so you will see a strong correlation in that.

In terms of the departmental results framework, each department is to write its departmental results framework. There is a process through which deputy ministers and ministers meet with Treasury Board ministers. We have done that and we continue to do that today.

We play a challenge function. I can tell you the language being used is very much the kind of language that makes it very easy to explain what a program seeks to achieve, and the indicators are measurable and over time, longitudinally, they will show results. The best thing to do would be to actually come back and actually bring some of those reports and compare them to the previous program architectural reports.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Perfect. We'll do them with the estimates.

I want to get back to your comment about having great respect for the work the committees do, and I appreciate the long term you spent in opposition.

I want to bring this back to something we've discussed with you previously, the whistle-blower report. The report was done by the committee with unanimous support from the NDP, the Liberals, and us. It required, I think, 15 legislative changes to protect public servants. You say you respect the work the committee did but you basically just binned the report.

You've said you're going to consult. What have you done constructively to fulfill the 24 recommendations of the whistle-blower report and the very needed changes?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

First of all, we're working with federal institutions to seek ways to improve the protection of public servants and to ensure that our government's position is absolutely clear in terms of ensuring that public servants have a safe place and we can see through the process—

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

You have a commitment from your government to bring about some of these recommended changes, these needed changes to protect people—

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

But beyond that, as I said, I'm interested in the committee's report, and we've been working, as you know—

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

When can we see a commitment with regard to a date from your government for these much-needed recommendations to protect our public servants, others, and taxpayers brought into effect?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

There's actually work being done on an ongoing basis within our government that reflects that desire.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Would you provide a report to the committee of what you've actually done then, since the report's been issued?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS

Look, I would be interested in actually coming back to the committee to discuss that whole area.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

We invited you but your government members voted down your appearance, if you recall.