Evidence of meeting #123 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Wright  Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Nathalie Laliberté  Director General, Program, Portfolio and Client Relationship Management, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Matthew Sreter  Executive Director, Strategic Policy Development and Integration Directorate, Acquisitions, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Good morning. Today's meeting, as you know, is on procurement strategy for aboriginal businesses and small and medium-sized enterprise in federal procurement. There's only one panel today, from 11 o'clock until 12 o'clock.

We have, from the Department of Public Works and Government Services, Rob Wright, Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch; Nathalie Laliberté, Director General, Program, Portfolio and Client Relationship Management; and Matthew Sreter, Executive Director, Strategic Policy Development and Integration Directorate, Acquisitions.

Marc LeClair of the Métis National Council was supposed to appear today but had to cancel.

The first group is going to be here for one hour, and our meeting will end at noon. Mr. Wright has to leave 10 minutes early, so don't think he's disappearing on us.

With that, who has opening remarks?

11 a.m.

Rob Wright Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks also to all committee members.

My name is Rob Wright and I am the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for the Parliamentary Precinct Branch within Public Services and Procurement Canada.

I am here to speak to you today about our work in the Parliamentary precinct as part of the committee's study on small and medium enterprises in federal procurement, and on the procurement strategy for aboriginal business.

Joining me today is Nathalie Laliberté, Director General for the Program, Portfolio and Client Relationship Management sector within the Parliamentary precinct. Nathalie is currently supporting officials at Canada-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, as well as the national indigenous organizations and local stakeholders, to develop the vision for a national space for indigenous peoples at 100 Wellington, the former American embassy.

Also with me from our department is Matthew Sreter, Executive Director, Strategic Policy Development, Acquisitions. As it does for the Government of Canada more broadly, the acquisitions program provides procurement services to help us accomplish our important mandate here in the Parliamentary precinct.

The Parliamentary precinct is made up of 34 crown-owned buildings, 28 of which are designated heritage buildings. It includes Canada's Parliament buildings as well as the buildings along Sparks and Wellington streets. Our role is to operate and maintain these facilities on behalf of Parliament, and to undertake the planning and delivery of work to restore and modernize these important and iconic federal assets.

We are making good progress so far in our effort to to bring these 19th-century buildings into the 21st century. Since restoring the beautiful Library of Parliament in 2006, we have completed a number of major projects, including the Sir John A. Macdonald building in 2015 and the building we are meeting in today, the Wellington building, in 2016.

In the next few months, we will be completing the government Conference Centre, phase 1 of the Visitor Welcome Centre and the West Block. The completion of these state-of-the-art facilities will enable the Centre Block to be emptied and its major restoration to begin.

In undertaking our work, we engage the private sector for a broad range of services, including skilled trades, construction, manufacturing, and professional services, such as urban planning and architecture and engineering expertise. The procurement processes used to secure these services are led by our department's procurement branch in accordance with the policies set out by the Treasury Board of Canada.

Large-scale restoration and modernization projects, such as the West Block, for example, are extremely complex. While we engage directly with a broad range of small and medium-sized companies, we also typically have in place large contracts for architectural and engineering services and construction management to help us manage these large-scale infrastructure projects.

It is important to note, however, that for the major construction projects, over 90% of the value flows through to small and medium-sized companies through work that is competitively subcontracted by the construction manager. For example, on a project such as the West Block, on any given day, there are approximately 1,000 people from over 40 different companies involved in the work on site.

While the work is happening here, locally, on the construction site, its economic footprint is much more national in scale. There are a number of firms supporting the work that are situated here in the national capital region, but several others come to us from a range of large Canadian cities, such as Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, and Edmonton, as well as a fairly diverse set of smaller cities and towns, such as Hamilton, Saint-Canut, Saint-Georges, and Chatham.

We're making significant investments into the parliamentary precinct and where possible, we're looking to leverage them to support socio-economic objectives. Last year, we engaged Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton to conduct an impact analysis of our work. They concluded that our department is leveraging the restoration work in the parliamentary precinct to encourage widespread inclusion of Canadians, specifically increasing the participation of youth, women, and indigenous people, as well as indigenous firms.

Partnering and engagement, both internally and externally, has been a critical success factor for our work. We have established many long-standing partnerships with Canadian universities to provide youth with skills development opportunities, while affording us the opportunity to leverage innovation and unique research experience to overcome technical challenges in our work.

Another example is a masonry apprenticeship program that we helped to create for the West Block that had over 60 participants, 30% of whom were women. This is the highest ever recorded total for a program of this nature in North America.

Regarding indigenous participation specifically, we have also had success. Using voluntary set-asides through the procurement strategy for aboriginal business, PSAB, we have awarded over $15 million in work to indigenous firms since fiscal year 2014-15. Set-asides have been used on all of our major projects. They are provided for a range of goods, including artisanal millwork and furniture for parliamentary offices, the new cabinet room in West Block, and committee rooms, including the furnishings in this room here. They have also provided for an array of services, such as environmental engineering services, project management support services for the Centre Block, and also for the project to restore the building we are in today. Just this past fiscal year, a little over 2% of the expenditures on our major projects were made through indigenous firms.

Before proceeding further in my remarks, I would like to address statements made in previous hearings, regarding geographic barriers to bidding on contracts for work on Parliament Hill, specifically, requirements to be within a 50-kilometre radius of our sites.

The first thing that I would like to emphasize is that we want to reduce barriers to participation and not increase them. In general, industry capacity in our field of work is one of the most significant risks we face and therefore, working in partnership to increase capacity is critical to our continuing success in the future. We don't limit bidding to a geographic area. However, this particular contract was for on-site project management support services for projects here on Wellington Street and did require the ability to be on site within short notice. A 50-kilometre limit was used as a proxy to be able to perform the services on-site and support the efficient and effective delivery of the work.

The intent was not to limit bidding, but to indicate that services would be required on site. I agree with the critique that the language that was used could easily be interpreted as limiting. Therefore, when this matter was brought to our attention, we worked with our partners in the acquisitions program and took three steps. First, we removed the clause from the request for proposals. Second, we extended the tender time from 20 to 30 days, and third, we also excluded 100 Wellington Street from the contract, so that a set-aside could be used in support of indigenous leadership and participation on this historic project.

Going forward, we intend to continue to use set-asides. We are also committed to leveraging new and existing tools and engaging in broader partnerships, in order to increase the economic business, employment, and capacity-building opportunities for indigenous peoples, as well as other under-represented segments of society in this field of work, including youth and women. In this vein, we are committed to working with our acquisitions partners to require bidders for large-scale projects under set-asides to establish an indigenous subcontracting strategy, an indigenous participation strategy, and an indigenous internship or apprenticeship strategy.

In our 2016-17 annual report, which is public, we committed to doing this in 100% of our major projects and established a target of at least 5% subcontracted work to indigenous firms for our major construction projects.

We are also in the early stages of engaging with our federal partners at Employment and Social Development Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs to to develop an integrated indigenous participation framework that aligns with the ongoing review of PSAB and the aboriginal skills and employment training strategy, and supports the government's broader procurement modernization agenda.

It will take some time to develop in full, but as a next step, we will be consulting our indigenous partners such as as the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business and members of the national indigenous organizations so that we can collectively develop a meaningful strategy that produces sustained results.

In closing, we are fully committed to working in partnership to eliminate barriers, and to leveraging these iconic infrastructure projects as investments for the benefit of all Canadians.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

We will go to the first round of questions for seven minutes, Monsieur Drouin.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Wright, I don't want to put you on the spot, but I'm going to put you on the spot for the parliamentary precinct. We're still on schedule? Okay. Thanks for the visit the last time. We really appreciated seeing how the construction projects were going.

You mentioned in the statement the 50-kilometre radius. That was an issue raised in previous testimony. So you have completely removed the clause from the request for proposal?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Rob Wright

Absolutely. We did. Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

The tender time was extended 20 to 30 days. Have we seen new bidders come forward because of that? They have been informed I assume.

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Rob Wright

I will ask Nathalie Laliberté to respond to that question.

11:10 a.m.

Nathalie Laliberté Director General, Program, Portfolio and Client Relationship Management, Department of Public Works and Government Services

For this particular process, we had two bidders. I cannot say with accuracy if the fact that we extended has changed the result of the RFP. I don't have information in that regard.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

You're not mentioning the results, but we have seen two bidders. I guess you couldn't tell before the 20 to 30 days, until the extension, so you don't know. Okay.

In terms of including indigenous people and their businesses, what type of strategy are you using? You talked about building capacity. We've heard there are some issues on the IT side. Just on the construction side, how are you building capacity with indigenous people?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Rob Wright

To date, we have used the set-aside program for aboriginal business to ensure there's participation from indigenous businesses in the work we do. Going forward, I wouldn't say we have all the answers yet. We really want to develop an approach that creates meaningful results. It's not about a tick-box exercise. We really do want it to work with the broader partnership.

We have upcoming the 100 Wellington project, which is to develop in partnership both with Crown-Indigenous Relationships and Northern Affairs as well as the national indigenous organizations and indigenous communities to create a vision for that project where there's true indigenous leadership for developing that vision for the project and then implementing it.

It's going to take some creativity, and we are working with our federal partners as well as externally to try to push the limits of what we can do within the policy frameworks we have that can ensure there are those meaningful opportunities, and that we do build capacity.

It's in our best interests as well. One of the key things we face in this work is a shortage of skilled trades. When you look at the demographics when you look forward, it would look like a larger challenge rather than a diminishing challenge over time. I think there's a good fit to achieve a win-win-win opportunity.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Again, I haven't heard anything on the construction side, but on the IT side again, one of the complaints I heard was “we were put on the list by PSAB, but that's it”. They were on the list, but they were never picked at the end of the day. A lot of them are wondering what the point is of having a policy if they are not going to be included in the process.

Something I think would be useful is creating those opportunities of collaboration between the prime contractors and potential indigenous people, or even having indigenous people where the capacity is as the prime contractor.

Are you envisioning new steps in the next year in terms of how you're going to deal with that?

11:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Rob Wright

I think you've put your finger on the issue.

A lot of the opportunities are in the subcontracting area and making sure of those opportunities for partnerships and joint ventures and being a part of the supply chain, so that it's not reliant only on the direct contractual arrangements with the federal government. That is going to be key. That's really where we're going forward to try to create those incentives in the prime contracts, if you will, for those firms to create strategies to engage indigenous firms, opportunities for indigenous employment, and internship and apprenticeship opportunities, so that you get that capacity-building over time as well.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Another issue that we've heard as well is potentially bringing PSAB within the acquisitions branch or within the department.

How would you see that? Would you see that as beneficial? I'm not sure if you can answer that question.

11:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Parliamentary Precinct Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Rob Wright

Maybe I'll ask my colleague, Matthew Sreter, to respond to that.

11:15 a.m.

Matthew Sreter Executive Director, Strategic Policy Development and Integration Directorate, Acquisitions, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Sure, I'm happy to respond, but I don't truthfully know if I can respond to that.

Yes, I've heard that's a consideration. I'm not sure where it's at in terms of the actual considerations moving forward.

Acquisitions program is the common service provider in Public Services and Procurement Canada for the government. I think we have a really solid working relationship with the owners of the PSAB policy, and so I think separating policy and contracting considerations makes sense to a certain extent, as does perhaps collapsing them. I think there are pros and cons to both.

In terms of what Mr. Wright was saying earlier, key to what we're looking at here, whether it's in one organization or both, is how we are modernizing our approaches. How are we actually changing the way we do business?

One example of what Mr. Wright referred to earlier, in another context that will take you to defence procurement, is under our national shipbuilding strategy. We've worked in partnership with the prime contractors as well as aboriginal firms to make sure we have capacity-building in the form of training. We've trained more than 1,500 aboriginal workers in very skilled trades related to steel and welding. I think looking at it holistically, rather than simply transactionally, with our partner departments and agencies is the way to go.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Great. Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. McCauley.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'd like to start, please, by introducing my motion that I put on the agenda a couple of days ago.

Do you want to hand it out?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Yes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'll just read it out in case everyone's forgotten it already.

That the committee hold a briefing with the Privacy Commissioner to discuss Government of Canada advertising policy with Facebook and the potential impacts on data collection and dissemination with third parties at the expense of the Canadian taxpayer, and that the meeting be held no later than May 10, 2018.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. McCauley, I was just given new information that the ethics and privacy committee has just approved a similar motion presented by Charlie Angus.

Do you still want to continue this?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I would like to continue it because this is specifically regarding the government advertising that came out of the report from our study on government advertising. It hopefully answers some questions we had to the bureaucrats that were not answered at the time.

In light of the shocking information that's come out with Christopher Wylie, his interference with the U.S. elections, interference from the Russians, and his past involvement with the government and the Liberal party, I think it's important we have her here to discuss specifically the data, the analytics from the government ads that have been running for the last while.

It addresses the report that we had, but it also addresses the recommendations in the report that haven't been followed yet, to move away from Facebook. We asked specifically in our report that we move away from social media advertising immediately, until we could get clarification on the privacy issues. This was long before the whole thing blew up with Facebook, so I think it's important that she come and address it.

Especially, as well, there are reports. There's one here from The Globe and Mail that Russian social media targeted the energy sector. We've seen Russian media interfere with pipeline issues in Canada as well. They've actually gone after the Prime Minister, I assume, again, using analytics culled from Facebook, which the government has been using for advertising. I think this is a very important issue. I think we all agree it's an important issue, and I'd like to call an immediate vote so we can move forward with it, but also get back to our witnesses.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Mr. Blaikie, did you want to say something?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Yes, I just wanted to offer my support for the motion.

As Mr. McCauley said, it's an important issue. It's something, as parliamentarians, we're all going to have to learn a lot about in the near future, and the Privacy Commissioner would be a great person to help enlighten the folks here at the committee. As was rightly pointed out, it pertains to work the committee has already done where there was some unfinished business, so it's an appropriate step forward.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

Mr. Ayoub.