Evidence of meeting #130 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parliamentarians.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
That would have been characterized as a slush fund. This can't be.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC
Mr. President, would you mind commenting on this paragraph from the PBO's report that I find a bit outlandish, “Compared to the old approvals system, TBS due diligence will no longer be performed on new Budget spending measures before the Government asks for Parliament’s assent”.
I don't understand how this can fit with what you've just explained to us.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I think there was some level of confusion there. I think we have cleared that up sufficiently. Brian may want to add to that.
Again, I have great respect for the work of the PBO. We have a working relationship with the PBO and with the Auditor General. The Auditor General, who is a significant authority on these matters, agrees with us. In my discussion with Jean-Denis earlier this week, he expressed comfort with our approach and made this very plain. Taking the items in table A2.11 and putting them line-by-line in the supply bill is a reassuring step.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
It demonstrates that we are serious and throughout this process we are and we will be serious when it comes to our accountability to Parliament for the expenditure of tax dollars.
Brian.
11:45 a.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
As the PBO notes, this is not the only set vote that TB administers. There are five other votes that total $5.2 billion. There is no detail on those votes in terms of department, initiative, or amount. Obviously, vote 40 compares very favourably in that context, as it does internationally.
We have looked at similar votes in other jurisdictions, including the provinces and Australia, and this is the one vote administered by the central agency that clearly identifies where the money is going by department, by initiative, and by dollar amount.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Mr. Poilievre, you have five minutes, please.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. President, Mr. Askari, of the Parliamentary Budget Officer's office, described the main estimates bill. It would approve funds ”in support of initiatives announced in the budget”. That wording was, I quote:
“very broad and general wording” and “does not compel them” to spend as described.
“It gives the flexibility to government, presumably, to allocate the funds differently than...they had indicated in the budget. To us and to Parliamentarians, that reduces the kind of control and scrutiny they could have over these measures.”
That was right from the Parliamentary Budget Officer's personnel.
As a result of this backlash, you're backing down. On behalf of the opposition, I give you credit for that. The government was caught, I think, with its hand in the cookie jar. But, in fairness, the president has listened to the backlash and he has responded today by starting his retreat.
That being said, we cannot, as an opposition, announce support for the decision because we have not had a chance yet to review the exact change that the president has just put on the floor. We will consult with the PBO to ascertain whether he is satisfied now that the President of the Treasury Board has begun this climb down.
We'll put that aside for a moment. I'll just ask about the role of parliamentary committees in reviewing the items contained in the central vote.
For example, in table A2.11, there are funds for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. That typically would go to the industry committee. Will you be the one to testify at the industry committee when it reviews and approves the estimates for that sum of money?
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
The estimate process, the budget process, and the committee process have been in place for a long time. I don't know how many times I've appeared before this committee.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Will you be the one to appear on that particular item, for example?
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
On that item, in fact, on any of these items, Treasury Board is accountable. We are as a government accountable to not exceed those amounts. Now, if at industry committee there is a desire to hear from, for instance, my colleague Minister Navdeep Bains, to talk about that, I'm certain Minister Bains, who is accountable for the expenditures within his department, in ISED, would be more than happy to appear before the industry committee.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Would that item then, which is going to fund his department, be voted on at the industry committee?
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
The reality is that there is a committee process in terms of the approval of these expenditures. The finance committee, of course, plays an important role in terms of parliamentary approval, but every parliamentarian has an opportunity to vote on these items through the supply bill.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Right, and the committee of the whole.... I'm asking about the specific committees, because in the past, when a CRA measure has come forward, that measure has been voted on at the finance committee because CRA reports to Finance. Will the items in here be voted on separately by their respective committees, or will they all be voted on by this single committee?
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Mr. President, thank you for answering my questions. I appreciate that. You have answered the question—
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
—and I want to thank you for that.
That brings me to my next question.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Just one second, and I won't dock any time from you, Mr. Poilievre.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Mr. Minister, just to be clear here, from a procedural standpoint, it would be correct to allow the questioner to complete a question. I know that you have some other opportunities—
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
We only have about a minute left, so I'll go to Mr. Poilievre for possibly the last question. You have about 35 seconds, Mr. Poilievre.