Government Operations Committee on June 11th, 2018

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

A very brief answer, please.

[Brian Pagan]

Right.

As an example, you will see, under the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, strengthening Canada's food safety system, $12.7 million. That is an item that has been identified in this budget. Does Parliament support that initiative? If they don't, they have the authority now to reduce the amount of the vote or to strike that item from the vote. If they in fact support the initiative, then they can ask questions of the department, such as how they are doing it, what partners they are working with, how many FTEs there are.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Kelly, you have five minutes, please.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I want to begin with a quick comment. We've had a fair bit of discussion around comparative systems, and it has been said that the Province of Ontario has a system much similar to this. I would point out to the committee that the Province of Ontario has the largest sub-sovereign debt in the world. I would suggest that we not take lessons from the Province of Ontario on financial oversight. I would say that the argument that this happens in Ontario would be a counter argument to allowing the implications behind vote 40 to take root in the Canadian federal Parliament.

We heard on May 22 from Mr. Pagan about most vote 40 items not having gone through the Treasury Board submission and approval process at that point. Now that we have some department officials here, I'd like to ask about some individual departments.

This question is for the Department of Natural Resources. On your vote 40 allocation, which I understand is some $16 million, which of these items, if any, have now gone through the Treasury Board submission process?

[John Kozij, Director General, Trade, Economics and Industry Branch, Canadian Forest Service, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you. My name is John Kozij. I'm the DG of trade, economics and industry branch at Natural Resources Canada, with the Canadian Forest Service.

Our numbers were $12.3 million, actually. If you have $16 million, then it must be as a result of EPB, I imagine, as well as combinations that are factored in. Our resources are dedicated towards full-time equivalent supports of about 13 employees. It's a subcomponent of the larger amount of ensuring rules-based and responsible trade. You'll see that there's a $191-million figure over five years. Global Affairs Canada leads to a broader initiative on softwood lumber, but we provide analytical support to that.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'm looking right at table A2.11: $16,050,000; $11 million for protecting jobs in eastern Canada's forestry sector; $2.46 million for ensuring rules-based responsible trade; $2.2 million for ensuring security and prosperity in the digital age; $390,000 for protecting Canada's nature, parks, and wild spaces.

I just want to know how much has gone through the Treasury Board submission process, and what hasn't. Do you know the answer to that question?

[John Kozij]

My understanding is the $12.3 million for our softwood lumbar secretariat has passed the Treasury Board process.

[Brian Pagan]

That $12.3 million probably is the funding over the duration of the project. What you're seeing in the annex is the requirements for this year, for 2018-19.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have Treasury Board and the department officials here, and I can't get an answer on—

[Brian Pagan]

I just provided you the answer.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

—how much of the $16,050,000 is on—

[Brian Pagan]

A single initiative, ensuring rules-based and responsible trade.... It's the first two items: protecting jobs in eastern Canada's forestry sector and ensuring rules-based and responsible trade. Those two initiatives have been through the TB process.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

For Mr. Thompson at Industry, I have the same question. How much of your department has gone through the Treasury Board process?

[Philippe Thompson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Management Sector, Department of Industry]

The Department of Industry had 11 initiatives under budget 2018, and of those only one has accessed the Treasury Board process. It's the initiative improving access to the digital economy. It's known as “computers for schools”, and the amount is for $5.4 million.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

It says $4.6 million. I'm talking about vote 40 in the annex.

[Philippe Thompson]

In vote 40, it's improving access to the digital economy, and the funding approved by Treasury Board is $5.4 million.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's greater than the amount listed in the vote that we haven't voted on yet.

[Brian Pagan]

The initiative, as Mr. Thompson said, is $5.4 million: $5.286 million is the cash required to deliver the program, and then there is an amount that is held back because that's for the employee benefit plan of $113,000 for employee benefit costs, for a total of $5.4 million this fiscal year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly, we're out of time, but you will have much more time to ask questions as we develop along the route.

Mr. Massé, welcome to our committee. You have five minutes, sir.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a privilege and an honour to be here.

As a former federal public servant, I can tell you that when the President of the Treasury Board announced the new approach, many people welcomed it. It will provide much greater predictability for the initiatives submitted for approval and included in the budget.

Knowing at the start of April that the funds would be available to carry out these initiatives was great news. I sincerely applaud this change. It allows us to bring these initiatives forward. They are important initiatives in various regions of Canada.

I would like the Treasury Board officials to explain something about the table provided by the Library of Parliament, table 2. Of the $7 billion, the remaining funds total about $5.2 billion.

Can you tell me the process for accessing those funds?

We know that funds were already allocated on April 16 and June 5, and I assume further funds will be allocated. Please explain the process for accessing the remaining funds.

[Brian Pagan]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Massé.

The work we do with the departments to implement the projects announced in Budget 2018 is essential. Our system has two stages.

First, in the budget, the government set out priorities for the coming year.

Second, at Treasury Board, we work closely with the departments to develop ways to implement the programs in order to resolve issues relating to staff, jobs, results, and indicators. We have to make sure the programs unfold properly. In some cases, it can take weeks, months or even years to finalize the terms of the projects.

It's a question, Mr. Massé, that varies by initiative and by department. There can be initiatives that are inherently complex because they're dealing with other jurisdictions, whether it's aboriginals, provinces, or even other governments. It is important that the department responsible for the initiative work closely with its partners to identify the results to be achieved, and the resources to be utilized in pursuit of those resources, so that when they bring an item to Treasury Board, they can answer all of our questions about how many FTEs and where the initiative will be directed from: is it Ottawa or the regions?

It takes time to finalize all these matters. The department cannot submit the project to Treasury Board until all the elements have been decided upon.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I understand that process well. In the past, the sequence for the departments was as follows: Supplementary Estimates (A) in May, then Supplementary Estimates (B), and finally Supplementary Estimates (C), which were tabled in January or February.

I would like to know if the same process will apply to access the remaining funds, that is, the $5.2 billion.

Once the projects under the $7 billion have been approved, will there be a simple administrative mechanism between the departments and Treasury Board Secretariat to access the $5.2 billion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm afraid, Mr. Pagan, you may have an opportunity, but not quite yet, to answer that question.

We're going to the final intervention in this round.

Colleagues, following that, I will suspend for just a few moments while the next group of panellists and witnesses come to the table.

Mr. Blaikie, you have three minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I want to ask you, Mr. Scott-Douglas, from the National Research Council, about an allocation in the update from June for just about $53 million for the National Research Council, under the rubric, “Convert Sunsetting Funding into Permanent Funding”.

I know that's not mentioned as an item in the departmental plan, although there is some time spent in the departmental plan explaining that a number of apparent funding reductions are the result of programs sunsetting.

I'm wondering if the goal of this money is to prevent that lag of not knowing what's going to be approved or not approved. How does having the money meant to stop the sunsetting, in a central vote that lapses at the end of the year and which would then have to be reapproved next year as well, address the issue of sunsetting for the National Research Council?

[Roger Scott-Douglas, Secretary General, National Research Council of Canada]

Thank you for the question.

The $52.4 million, once you add the EBP, is about $59.6 million. That funding will be ongoing. It has, until now, been sunsetting funding. Indeed, it started in about 2000, and it's been renewed by the government at Treasury Board eight times since then. In this budget and going forward, it will be ongoing.