Evidence of meeting #147 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hiring.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Aylward  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Dany Richard  President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers
Amy Kishek  Legal Officer, Representation and Legal Services, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Greg Phillips  President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
Debi Daviau  President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Deborah Cooper  General Counsel, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
Jean Yip  Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.

4 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

There is a lot of temporary agency work being done as well within the federal public service. That does nothing for morale, either. When that job was there, and I've had my eye on that job for maybe the past 16, 18 or 24 months, and now all of a sudden I see it being filled by somebody from a temp agency, because somebody was needed there quickly, what does that do to my morale? What does that do to keep me engaged in my job?

As Mr. Richard said, you have to do your job well, and you should be doing your job well, but it's very difficult to do that when you see the job you may have wanted in the future simply disappear to somebody who is being brought in as a temp agency worker because the manager needed somebody quickly.

4 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

When I was much younger and better looking, I was on this committee and we were looking at the same issue, which is the fact that we end up with high turnover. We invest an amazing amount of money in training people, but we're not getting the best benefit for Canadian taxpayers, because we have systems that are favouring temp work, the precarious work, the contractor and the consultant.

How do we establish protocols so that we're actually building up an area of expertise in order to encourage the best and the brightest to stay and work in the civil service? This has gone on for years, and it seems that the turnover remains high and the precarious work is rising. How do we as a committee bring recommendations to actually start to transform this into something that it should be?

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Could I have a very short answer, Mr. Aylward?

October 4th, 2018 / 4 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

Absolutely. I think you have to go back to a centralized authority and that would be, of course, the Public Service Commission.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mrs. Mendès, you have seven minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's good to have you all here.

I am going to pick up on my colleague's last question, the one to which we didn't get an answer. Very specifically, why would you prefer hiring consultants, and then keep them very long term, or temporary workers? Bottom line, it's more or less the same pattern of not offering employees paths to permanence.

I just don't understand what makes it difficult. Once you hire people, and you put them in that pool of the federal civil service, why don't you offer them the possibility to be hired on a permanent basis?

4:05 p.m.

Amy Kishek Legal Officer, Representation and Legal Services, Public Service Alliance of Canada

If I may answer, that's a question for Treasury Board and for departments to give a response to, because it's not clear why there would be a preference.

As has been pointed out, when you have consultants or short-term hires or, in the case of temporary work agencies, working completely outside of the public service for a third party employer altogether, it really creates a discord in the work environment.

It creates a separate set of management for which, again, the federal public service and no one on this committee or anyone else would have direct oversight. It would be completely outside of the collective agreement. In fact, we would argue that it's contracting out bargaining unit work, and it in fact creates a great deal of harm that spills over on both ends. It's not clear why managers favour that, and in fact there has been a lot written and said to the contrary.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

It seems to me that the only obvious answer would be that in terms of labour costs, it would reduce the costs in a sense.

4:05 p.m.

Legal Officer, Representation and Legal Services, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Amy Kishek

That's certainly it, but that's the ultimate ethical question.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

I'm not excusing it; I'm just saying that it seems to me to be the answer to it.

4:05 p.m.

Legal Officer, Representation and Legal Services, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Amy Kishek

No, absolutely.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

On the other hand, in my view, you also have lots of costs in terms of lack of accountability that those people bring to the system.

Mr. Richard.

4:05 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers

Dany Richard

There is a notion that if you're going out to a consulting firm, it's third party independent, which is not the case. I've seen reports change, even the conclusion, based on comments from people. Our members are not accountable to the consultants. They report to the CFO. Their job is to maintain the integrity of the financial information. We go to the private sector to outsource, to get the quickness, but we also want to have a certain conclusion that we're looking for.

Our members will push back and say, “Look, we can't sign off on this.” Regarding Phoenix, many of our members said, “These assumptions you're making make no sense whatsoever, and we can't sign off on this.” We could however go to the private sector, and maybe someone will actually tweak our assumptions and give you what you want. There is a way to not only get the work done now, but also to influence the final impact of what we're trying to achieve as a conclusion.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

Okay. That leaves a lot to be...considering the Phoenix line there.

You were proposing, Mr. Aylward, that all of it go back to the Public Service Commission, that all hiring should be regulated and overseen by the Public Service Commission, but you do have the joint advisory council. I would like to hear you on that if possible. How often do you meet? Do you have proposals that have been discussed? What has come out of those meetings?

4:05 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

I sat on the Public Service Commission joint advisory council from 2012 until May of this year. The council meets roughly twice a year. What we do is we bring these situations, the very situations that we're talking about today, that we're hearing from our membership, to that council. Then, of course, they're discussed there.

A couple of years ago, we talked about streamlining the processes to make them a little less complicated. Then we were hit with this NDS, new direction of staffing. It kind of came out of nowhere to the council. We hadn't discussed new direction of staffing. We'd discussed some streamlining of the processes. Then all of a sudden it's, “Oh, we need to discuss this at the next meeting; here's a copy of it”, and there's a new direction of staffing. The oversight needs to be looked at. You simply cannot have managers who are not qualified to do hiring doing hiring, and that's proven.

The other issue is that if there's a central body to do the oversight, and if it's included in our collective agreement, then we can point to something and say, “We have to do this; we have to start following this. The collective agreements that we're both signatories to say this, and we haven't been doing this." However, right now it's taking 197 days, 224 days, and there's really no accountability to that. If I'm a manager and I know that I want a particular person and then all of a sudden I'm four months into the process and that person leaves, I just say, “Well, you know what? Let's cancel the process and start a new one.” That's what's happening, and there's nobody there to say, “No, you're not cancelling this process.” There has to be an authority—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

By not cancelling the process, what would you do? Would you go to the next person in line, to the other candidates?

4:10 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

If it's truly a meritorious process, that's exactly what would happen.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

What is the purpose of the council?

4:10 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

The council is basically to be an adviser to the commission. Its main purpose is to provide advice, to provide our feedback from what we're hearing from our members to the council. Then what happens to that after.... As I said, I don't know when the inception of the council was, but from what I've seen in six years, the effectiveness of the council probably should be questioned.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

There's never enough time, it seems, in committee hearings like this to have a truly fulsome debate. Seven minutes per member is really not a lot of time. Gentlemen and lady, should you have additional information that you wish to provide to our clerk as we engage in the study, I would strongly encourage you to do so in written form to our clerk. All of your recommendations, your suggestions and your observations will be very helpful to us in our deliberations.

Thank you for being here. You've been most informative and helpful.

Committee members, we will suspend for only about two minutes while we get the next set of panellists to come to the table.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, we'll reconvene.

We have another set of panellists. We have the Canadian Association of Professional Employees and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada.

Mr. Phillips, you are first up. If you have prepared remarks, we would appreciate it greatly if you could keep them to within 10 minutes. The floor is yours.

4:15 p.m.

Greg Phillips President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees

I'll certainly try.

Good afternoon. Thank you for inviting me to speak today at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

My name is Greg Phillips. I'm the president of the Canadian Association of Professional Employees, otherwise known as CAPE. CAPE represents approximately 15,000 economists, policy analysts, translators and interpreters—such as those people behind the window who defend Canada's linguistic duality. We also represent the amazing analysts at the Library of Parliament—some of whom are here today—and the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

For many years, our membership has raised issues with respect to the staffing process, including its fairness and transparency. These two core principles are at the heart of my message tonight.

Of course, there are aspects of the process that do work very well. I will not be delving into those today. I would rather spend our time today discussing what we would like to see fixed.

I intend to focus on four main areas: improvement to fairness and recourse mechanisms, length of time to run processes, arbitrary language requirements coupled with no funding for language training, and unbalanced and unfair use of geographic area of selection.

Regarding fairness in the staffing process and the recourse mechanisms, the process itself is neither transparent nor easy to understand for our members. For example, it is often unclear why a person has been screened out of a process. Mechanisms available to employees to get those answers, especially in the informal discussion process, are often ignored or carried out in a hasty manner. It has resulted in a deep distrust of the process. Despite that, employees remain fearful to speak out or file a complaint, in that they may be labelled as difficult.

On the issue of management's accountability for their decisions in the staffing process, the extremely limited grounds for challenging staffing decision has led to a cynicism amongst the employees in the process and a feeling that managers cannot and will not be held accountable.

Finally, when a staffing decision is successfully challenged, the recourse is minimal and the position is usually already filled.

Regarding the length of time it takes to run a process, the system itself is cumbersome and complex, which results in multiple delays. The changes to the PSEA have not led to a faster hire process as was envisioned under the new legislation many years ago. We have heard from many of our members that staffing actions take too long. It can be even worse for external processes. When competing with the private sector for the best and the brightest, this can be seen as a very significant barrier and a detriment to the public service as a whole.

Even in the case where an employee is offered a position, the additional time it takes to verify or conduct a security clearance, and/or verify or conduct language tests often results in a loss of our best candidates. We submit that this process requires more staff and more funding.

The overall result of the length of time it takes to run one process means that hiring managers are constantly looking for workarounds to the system in order to obtain their candidate of choice. This means that hiring decisions are often open to abuse, and the system becomes about who you know, rather than who is the best person for the job.

Regarding the language requirements, the feedback from our members has consistently demonstrated that more and more positions are being arbitrarily assigned a higher language requirement without any justification for doing so. This is not just an issue for the employees who do not meet the level, but also for hiring managers who cannot fill the positions with qualified candidates.

Besides ensuring that positions are correctly evaluated for the language requirement needed for for the duties of the position, the single biggest complaint we hear is that no funding is available for second language training. It is logical to conclude that if there is an increase in bilingual imperative positions, there must also be a corresponding increase in training and funding to meet this need. However, we are certainly not seeing this, particularly in the professional categories. This presents the possibility that someone exceedingly more qualified for the job does not get it, while someone who simply meets the bare minimum requirements obtains the job because they were fortunate enough to have access to language training early in their career. This concern also has an impact on priority entitlements, including veterans, who are often unable to meet that one requirement.

Regarding the arbitrary use of geographic areas of selection, the area of selection, or AOS, chosen for each competition is often unbalanced and unfair. It appears chosen to both ease the work requirement for the competitions—fewer applicants mean less work for the competition—as well as to minimize relocation expenditures.

This is a public service that represents all Canadians. Regional office job competitions are typically open to everyone across the country, but the jobs, often the better and higher-profile jobs, in the national capital region are limited to just those working in the national capital region. In today's day and age, with the technological advances open to us, geographic distance should not be a limiting factor in selecting the best candidate for the job.

As such, it is our submission that unless there is a reasonable justification for not opening up the job competition to the broader population, the AOS should be as expansive as possible, so that we are obtaining the best and most representative candidates to reflect the Canadian population.

Having set out many of our concerns, it is useful to briefly discuss some possible solutions.

Regardless of what is implemented or changed, my first recommendation is that it be done following proper consultation with the bargaining agents. This means consultation from the ground up on changes and improvements to the PSEA and any staffing policies. This will not only result in a better outcome and buy-in, but will achieve the goal of harmonious labour relations and effective joint problem-solving.

My second recommendation is consistency for competitions across departments, including increased funding for more regular auditing of all departments, not just for a select few each year, in addition to consistency in how the process of applying language requirements or geographic area of selection is carried out. Increased funding for auditing departments will be a big step towards greater consistency and fairness.

My third recommendation is increased funding for, and access to, training for staff advisers, so hiring managers can receive prompt and correct advice and assistance with their competitions.

Regarding training for second language requirements, if we are changing positions to require a language profile of CBC, for example, we need to make sure there are qualified candidates available and funds for language training. If not, the positions either remain empty or are staffed by assignments, which have more flexible requirements than the particular language requirement of the position. Overuse of assignments results in a cascade of staff in acting assignments rather than permanent positions. In the long term, this has the effect of wasting both time and money.

The fourth recommendation is that, rather than pushing managers to return money to their budgets, the process allow them to staff at their appropriate levels. Often the pressure to reduce the budget or return money at the end of each fiscal quarter, coupled with the daunting task of running a long staffing process, results in managers asking staff to do excess work. This has a cascading effect in that staff become burned out or move to greener pastures, thus compounding the staffing difficulties.

Fifth and finally, our members have been very concerned about the outsourcing of the public service employee survey, which was talked about earlier today. We know it is best carried out by Statistics Canada, a world-renowned statistical agency. The results of this survey are critical to an exceptional public service. CAPE staunchly opposes the contracting out of this valuable HR tool, a tool that both management and unions have relied on for a very long time.

On a Phoenix side note, due to the fact that transferring files and changing positions is creating additional pay problems, many staff are not applying to competitions for fear of causing issues in their pay. This is not necessarily part of a problem with the staffing process per se, but it is worth mentioning to the committee, as stories of these decisions are common.

The public service has become accustomed to avoiding risk. However, all risk can be managed, and without some risk, innovation and improvement become impossible. Investing in staffing will not only have an impact on the resources required for the process itself, but also improve the morale, quality of work and resolve of the public service as a whole.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Next up, representing the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada, we have Madam Debi Daviau. Welcome back to our committee.

4:25 p.m.

Debi Daviau President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada

Thanks, it's great to be here. I was going to say that it's really nice to talk about something other than Phoenix, but Greg ruined it for me.

4:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees

Greg Phillips

You're welcome.