Evidence of meeting #147 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hiring.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Aylward  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Dany Richard  President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers
Amy Kishek  Legal Officer, Representation and Legal Services, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Greg Phillips  President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
Debi Daviau  President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Deborah Cooper  General Counsel, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
Jean Yip  Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I call the meeting to order, even though it's a couple of minutes before our scheduled start time.

We we do have a number of witnesses with us today, and I appreciate their being here.

Colleagues, just for your edification, this is how I plan to deal with this. We have two panels of four witnesses each. Each of the two panels will have a 10-minute intervention per organization. Then we will go into, hopefully, a full seven-minute round of questions from each of the committee members. That should bring us to approximately 5 p.m., or shortly thereafter, at which time I will suspend and we will go in camera for some committee business.

Without further ado, I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Association of Canadian Financial Officers, we have Mr. Dany Richard and Mr. Nicolas Brunette-D’Souza.

From the Public Service Alliance of Canada, we have Chris Aylward, who we have had at this committee many times before, and Amy Kishek.

I understand that you have determined what the speaking order will be.

My understanding is that, Mr. Aylward, you're going first for 10 minutes, please.

The floor is yours.

3:25 p.m.

Chris Aylward National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to meet with you today.

Representing over 120,000 federal public service workers, our main focus is on internal staffing processes. In 2003, the Public Service Modernization Act, or PSMA, made changes to the Public Service Employment Act that were supposed to make staffing faster. While there are still complaints that the process is too slow, many of our members are more concerned about how arbitrary the process has become because of the PSMA changes.

Internal staffing processes need to be fair and appear to be fair, need to reflect the objectives of the Employment Equity Act, and need to provide appropriate career transition opportunities for our members. In the 2007 public service employee survey, when public service workers were asked if the selection process was done fairly in their work unit, 26% said no. Those numbers were even higher for equity groups, and as high as 40% for persons with disabilities.

In the staffing and non-partisanship survey report on the results for the federal public service released last week, 32% of the employees who responded said they felt the selection process in their work unit was not done fairly. Thirty-eight per cent did not agree that the staffing actions were carried out in a transparent way. Almost 54% agreed that appointments depended on who you know.

When the PSMA was enacted, the universally recognized concept of relative merit was replaced with a concept that is less fair and more arbitrary. Merit is now defined as someone who meets the essential qualifications of the position and any additional qualifications or needs that might be considered by the organization currently or in the future.

The PSMA gave front-line managers the ability to make appointments, and defined merit based on individual managerial discretion. Managers don't have to hire the most qualified candidate, only the candidate they think is the best. It is now acceptable to consider only one person for appointment. This has created the potential for abuse, and certainly the appearance of abuse, among our members.

Even layoffs are subject to the current concept of merit. This creates the bizarre situation where employees are made to compete for their own jobs. During the downsizing that occurred earlier this decade, the Public Service Commission was forced to quickly write guidelines to govern the process, which became known as SERLO, or the assessment and selection of employees for retention or layoff process.

The act also expressly encourages and facilitates delegation of the deputy head's authority to appoint to the lowest managerial level possible, creating serious accountability issues. Lack of accountability opens the door to arbitrary staffing decisions and, at the very least, the appearance of favouritism. The current new direction in staffing initiative is reinforcing that delegation to the lowest levels.

Another issue is that employees are often unaware of when staffing processes are taking place, in particular in the case of non-advertised and acting processes. The employer doesn't even have to post indeterminate positions. A hiring manager can decide that a particular person is the right fit for the position and therefore meets the definition and requirements of individual merit. This is neither fair nor equitable.

Non-advertised processes are often used when pools have already been created. Pools raise expectations that they will be used. However, it appears that managers have no obligation to use the pools they create. The task force on diversity and inclusion was told that members of equity-seeking groups qualify for positions after overcoming several barriers and then remain in pre-qualified pools at rates not proportionate with their numbers, with no recourse.

The recourse process itself is undermined and diluted by the PSMA. The Public Service Employment Act now encourages departments to create their own internal recourse mechanism, which results in a lack of consistency across the federal public service. The only informal recourse the Act requires is informal discussion. This allows unsuccessful candidates to talk with their manager about why they were not selected for appointment, or were screened out or not considered for appointment. However, informal discussion and mediation often appear to be dismissed by managers as a mere formality, and decisions are seldom reversed.

Beyond this, complaints to the Public Service Labour Relations and Employment Board can only be filed in very limited situations. These include situations where candidates are not appointed as a result of abuses of authority in determining merit, in choosing between an advertised and non-advertised internal appointment process, or in not assessing candidates in their official language of choice. There is very little time in which to launch a complaint, even within these very limited reasons.

The formal complaint process has become increasingly more legalistic, cumbersome and intimidating. Our volunteer activists are often advocating against lawyers in a clear imbalance of power.

While the old system of appeal boards was far from perfect, it did provide for an independent third party to consider the effect of errors, irregularities and omissions in the selection process. It was informal and easily accessible. These characteristics are absent from the current staffing process and remedies are limited as well. For example, employees cannot be put into a position if their complaint is upheld.

It is also important to note that very few complaints dealing with disabilities or lack of accommodation during a staffing process are pursued, yet disability-related discrimination is consistently identified as significant. It often takes a year or more to issue decisions, which discourages employees from filing complaints.

Many managers underscore staffing decisions with information from performance reports where talent is one of the key criteria. Talent is a very subjective concept, and our members believe that the importance placed on it as a staffing criteria is unfair and unaccountable.

As a result of the new direction in staffing, organizations are expected to self-audit staffing processes. Many departments and organizations are still not equipped to do so. Too often, the audit analysis is framed to support existing staffing decisions. If audits were working, members would not be seeing what they view as clear abuses of the non-advertised appointment process.

Self-auditing results should be shared with local, regional and national unions through consultation. Analysis and creation of audit questions should include a union perspective, as well as organizational surveys of candidates, complainants and all staff. This is not occurring at the national level as much as it should. There are also a number of barriers to equity groups in the staffing process. The Task Force on Diversity and Inclusion noted in its final report the lack of confidence in the fairness of the process.

Barriers identified by employees, as reported by the task force, included: pre-qualified hiring pools, as I've already mentioned; right fit assessments, which they assert are being used to disqualify candidates who meet all other requirements; the absence of opportunities to discuss and resolve the difficult issues of bias and discrimination; the fear of reprisal that prevents employees from raising issues of discrimination and harassment; and finally, very limited remedies.

We have some recommendations.

The current law should be changed so that we are able to negotiate staffing. Collective agreement provisions governing staffing would actually increase the speed in which internal staffing processes would work by setting clear parameters and timeframes.

The speed of staffing could be increased if the definition of merit was changed to include years of service factors.

Internal staffing plans must be complemented by career transition training and mentoring plans. To this end, staffing plans must be discussed with the unions at the local UMC level well ahead of staffing processes. Currently, they are not.

The Public Service Commission should have the power to demand that departments have clear and transparent mechanisms for working with unions and members on staffing issues.

Centralized staffing oversight by the commission should be increased, so that more audits and studies can be done about the real causes of staffing discontent and slow processes. We also support the recommendations on staffing in the report of the Task Force on Diversity and Inclusion.

Finally, regarding complaints about slowness of external staffing, it is important to hire people who can provide the very best services possible, and this principle needs to be balanced against the time it takes to hire them. Staffing may take too long because of human resources capacity in departments. Despite all of the problems with the Phoenix technology, cutting staff was a big part in creating the problems. Hiring more staff is a big part of the solution.

You also need to look at what jobs are being staffed. If you want to hire tradespeople or labour inspectors, for example, federal government wages for these jobs are uncompetitive. We have been trying for years to address that discrepancy through wage studies and collective bargaining.

Thank you for your time. Ms. Kishek and I will address any questions you may have.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Mr. Aylward.

Next up, we have representatives from the Association of Canadian Financial Officers.

Mr. Richard, the floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Dany Richard President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers

Chair, honourable members, and committee staff, good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

My name is Dany Richard. I am both a public servant and the president of the union representing more than 4,600 financial professionals in the public service across Canada, members who work every day to ensure the integrity of the public purse.

The goals of the public service staffing system are to ensure that jobs in the public service are open to any qualified candidate and to ensure that appointments are made in a fair, transparent and unbiased way. However, as PSAC has rightfully pointed out in their opening remarks, a 2018 survey of public servants by StatsCan revealed that a mere 46% of public servants believe that staffing activities within their work units are carried out in a fair manner. In other words, more than half of the respondents indicated that appointments for positions in our organizations “depend on who you know”.

Having dealt with many staffing complaints ourselves, we can certainly understand why public servants would think that. Not only is the system not delivering the results it's supposed to, but it also takes far too long to deliver these unsatisfactory results, which means higher costs. Staffing processes routinely take months at a time to complete, when the competition for talent has never been higher. If we want to continue to recruit the best and brightest into our public service, 12-month turnaround times simply won't do. We've confused process with rigour. The end result is an inefficient and ineffective system. It's not working. It's not working for us. It's not working for managers. It's certainly not working for Canadians.

I want to use my time today to highlight some of the less obvious impacts of our broken staffing system. First, I want to talk about the overreliance on contractors and consultants. We know from first-hand experience that one reason managers contract out work is that they don't have the time it takes to staff positions. We hear this from our members and we hear it from executives. The truth is that it's easier to tender a contract than to hire an employee even when the work is part of the core mandate. Our members have the competencies, knowledge, experience and eagerness to do the job, but the staffing process takes too long.

The cost of this abuse of the contracting system goes far beyond the exorbitant day rates that many of these contractors charge. Contractors and consultants aren't bound by the same ethics code that public servants must adhere to. Their work isn't always subject to access to information laws. People working in these contract roles aren't given the same protection under our whistle-blower protection regime. The public sector integrity commissioner isn't able to investigate allegations of wrongdoing by contractors the same way he can investigate public servants. In short, contract work lacks the accountability standards that are critical to ensuring that the public good is being served. It also inhibits the ability of members of Parliament like you to exercise your vital oversight role.

The overuse of contractors also means that we aren't investing in our internal capacity and developing the public servants who have committed their careers to serving Canadians. Instead, money is spent building the experience and capabilities of private corporations and individuals. We not only don't develop institutional knowledge, but we also outsource it. This leads to longer-term dependencies on these very consultants, feeding into the vicious cycle of outsourcing. I want to be clear that there are good reasons to use consultants from time to time, but using them as a workaround to inefficient staffing processes is not one of them.

Another impact is the rise in the use of unadvertised job competitions. This is where the staffing process is bypassed by bringing in someone who is deemed “best fit”. This undermines the very goals of the staffing system and reinforces the belief that public sector hiring is about who you know, not what you know. As with contracting out, there are times when unadvertised competitions are necessary. They are a useful tool for exceptional circumstances. However, they should not be used to circumvent a broken staffing system.

These are just a few of the impacts of our current staffing system. I know that my colleagues at this table and other witnesses you'll hear from will have many more to share as well. In my remaining time, I'd like to offer two suggestions that we believe will go a long way to making things better.

First, the staffing system should be moved into the collective bargaining process, as it is in almost every other jurisdiction in Canada. Staffing is excluded by legislation that likely violates the charter right to collective bargaining, yet you would be hard pressed to find a less efficient or more costly staffing regime in this country. Making staffing part of collective bargaining would give the employees, through their unions, an ownership stake in the process. It would also allow the government to tap into the collective knowledge of the groups using a process that already exists and serves our needs well.

Second, contractors and consultants should be made to abide by the same ethics and accountability rules as public servants. This wouldn't just level the playing field between staffing and contracting out. It would ensure you can carry out your oversight role and help ensure public trust in the system.

I realize this committee has many witnesses to hear from so I'll end my remarks there, but I look forward to any questions you might have. I'd like to finish by saying on behalf of ACFO, thank you for carrying out this important study.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I thank you both for being succinct. It allows for more questions for you from our members, which we will start right now with Madam Ratansi, for seven minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Chair, please give me a two-minute warning. Sometimes I don't realize what time it is.

Thank you to all four of you for being here. The staffing process, which is 197 days, is not feasible. If I were a millennial, which I am not—the boy at the end of the table is a millennial, the gentleman at the end....

Sorry, Francis.

He didn't take offence—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Don't pick on me. Pick on Ms. Falk.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

For a millennial to be told to wait for a year is not feasible, and you really need in the public service the right type of people. There is an aging population and there are retirees, so we need to ensure that the system is very effective and efficient. Some of the things that you've said and the recommendations you've made are things that we would like to look at and see how we can incorporate those recommendations or suggestions.

Perhaps you read what Mr. Borbey told us about reducing the administrative burden from 12 requirements to one, plus trying to make the job description process a little simpler, because that's the worst thing for anybody from outside who applies.

In fairness, I want to know what the career paths are that one can take. Say from a CFO perspective, where is the block? If some CPAs were to join your organizations, is the CFO position, for example, available to them or is it who you know, not what you know?

3:45 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers

Dany Richard

That's a very good question.

Recruitment and retention is an issue. Take the example of one of our typical members who has just recently graduated and is a CPA. We want to attract the best and the brightest and they're looking for a job in the public sector, and all of a sudden it will take four months, six months, 12 months. They're not going to wait that long. They need a job right now. They need one to gather the experience. What we're seeing right now is that people are going to private sector firms because they can make you an offer within a week. They'll do an interview. They'll like what they see, have a couple of tests, and there you go. You have a job.

Can one of our members as an accountant have a potential career path to a CFO? Absolutely. There's a model, a way to get you there, but you want to make sure you have the skill sets, the experience and the competencies before you reach that certain level, and right now, because of staffing processes based on who you know, you might not have that opportunity. For example, if I need to have more managerial experience and I want to gain that experience, I apply for a position but unfortunately, because of the staffing process the way it is, I might not have that opportunity to gain that job, because I didn't know enough people.

Specifically for accountants, sometimes their networking skills aren't the best, so they don't know who to talk to. I can tell my own members, and I will tell them, that they need to go out there and do word of mouth, do activities, take part in volunteer work, anything to get their names out there, because unfortunately, the staffing system is broken. We're trying to make it work better but in the meantime, they have to do their best career path the way they can.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

When you say the accountants do not have a network, remember, they are very focused on figures. I'm an accountant. I'm told I'm a very animated accountant. That's beside the point, but when you're looking at integrity, governance, oversight, you really do not pay attention to how you can get out and network.

What are some of the things you would do when a new person comes in? What are some of the positive impacts you could tell them they could make so that they have a chance to progress further?

3:45 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers

Dany Richard

I wish I could tell them, “Do your job well and your career will progress well.” You could be the best accountant in the government and you could be stuck in the position all your career, because you will apply for competitions, but no one knows who you are. No one has heard of you. Your name is not out there. Therefore, you don't have a likeability factor. It doesn't mean they're necessarily against you, but people prefer hiring people they know and they've heard of.

Instead of my members focusing on the numbers and making sure they are accurate and well reflected, some of them will focus on their people skills to get their name out there. There's a time and a place for that, but I think their main core mandate is to ensure the integrity of the financial system. That's what we want, that the numbers are right.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I have another question, which probably either of you can answer.

You talked about hiring contractors or consultants. In your experience, what is the length of time a consultant stays within the public sector? How many consultants are there within the system? How can we ensure that their knowledge is transferred over?

I used to deal with the social welfare system in the province of Ontario and Accenture came in. There was no transference of knowledge, and we were left with them forever. Explain to me how you would do that.

3:45 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers

Dany Richard

Can I take this one?

3:45 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

Go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers

Dany Richard

It's a very interesting question. Some of our financial officers, accountants, have the know-how, the experience and the skill set to do a job, and all of a sudden a particular task gets outsourced. The consultant comes in, starts talking with our members about what's wrong with forecasting or budgeting, for example. We'll give him the information, give him nice reports. Basically, our members are doing all the work, but the money's going to the consultants.

So in answer to your question as to how long they are there for, I don't have the average, but I can tell you that some consultants are so ingrained, they have their own office in the government. They have their names in the directory, their own numbers, their own email address. They've been there for years, and every year they create more and more jobs for themselves. This is a significant amount of money we're spending on consultants when the expertise lies within.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Why do you end up hiring consultants? I know the staffing process is a little cumbersome, but isn't there a way that you as managers or directors are able to ensure that you have the independence to hire people or to get the right expertise? Why do you go after consultants?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

That's a great question. Unfortunately, Mr. Aylward, we don't have enough time for your answer.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Give him 30 seconds.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Perhaps with Mr. McCauley's intervention, he'll give you an opportunity to answer the question posed by Ms. Ratansi.

Mr. McCauley.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Mr. Aylward, you touched on nepotism being an issue. When you talk about nepotism, is it more “who you know” nepotism or more the old-fashioned nepotism of family? Please be brief, because there's a lot of stuff I want to get to.

October 4th, 2018 / 3:50 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

I spoke about favouritism, and it's the old-fashioned favouritism, as both of us said in our remarks. It comes down to who you know. It's not necessarily the best qualified people getting those jobs, and our members see that. They see that in just about every staffing process. They can see the favouritism.

We talked about the creation of these pools. As I said, that raises the expectation, because you get into this pool and it's like, “Great, I'm in the pool. I'm qualified, and now all I have to do is wait to get picked out of the pool.” Then all of a sudden, along comes Mr. Richard and then, boom, he gets the job.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

It sounds like small businesses with standing offers.

3:50 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

You talked about the issue with disability hires. The government—current, previous and previous to that—has done a great job of having the public service reflect the demographics of the country, although Mr. Borbey commented that we're succeeding under disability mostly because current members are getting older and being hurt or becoming disabled, so they're qualifying for that. What barriers are you seeing to hiring new people into the workforce from the ranks of the disabled?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Chris Aylward

Some of the barriers start with the actual process itself, as far as accommodating goes. A lot of the staffing processes involves tests, and if there's a disability involved in doing that test, oftentimes you're simply—