Evidence of meeting #155 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carolyne Blain  Director General, Strategic Policy Sector, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Nick Xenos  Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat
David Schwartz  Director General, Commercial and Alternative Acquisitions Management Sector, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Gérard Deltell  Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC
Jean Yip  Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.
Sarah Petrevan  Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada
Denis Leclerc  Chairman of the Board and President and Chief Executive Officer, Écotech Québec, CanadaCleantech Alliance
Jean-François Béland  Administrator and Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Strategy, General Fusion, CanadaCleantech Alliance

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Madam Yip, you have five minutes, please.

4:20 p.m.

Jean Yip Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.

Thank you for coming.

Environmentally preferable goods and services can be more expensive due to specialization and the lag time. How will this reduce the cost for government and help achieve economies of scale?

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Sector, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Carolyne Blain

I think I would first state that it's not necessarily more expensive. Through early strategic planning of our procurements, we are looking at and understanding what the market availabilities are for products that offer green alternatives and ones that can help achieve our respective policies and goals, but also looking at it from a full life-cycle perspective. There's a good sense of not looking at just the price, but assessing the full impact of maintaining the assets, the goods or services, that we're purchasing so that those elements are actually factored into our decisions in order to make really sound decisions that do achieve the environmental objectives, while also ensuring that we are buying those goods and services that client departments are looking for.

4:20 p.m.

Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.

Jean Yip

What are the biggest challenges for the federal government in implementing green procurement policies? How could those challenges be overcome?

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Policy Sector, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Carolyne Blain

I'll start, and maybe my colleague can add to this.

I don't know that there's a challenge. We've been building environmentally sustainable products for a number of years across a number of our commodities at the federal level. I mentioned in my opening remarks that there are about 35 commodities, and within that there are a number of subgroups of commodities. Many of those embed environmental criteria, such as energy requirements and so on.

We can do a lot more, and we are pursuing those initiatives; there's no doubt about it. We need to continue working with the industry to stimulate innovation, and we do that right now through our build in Canada innovation program, which is about a $40-million program annually that we manage at PSPC.

We invest in clean technologies so some very interesting and innovative technologies are being developed that will have a direct benefit in the types of things we procure for federal client departments.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

I'll add that every procurement category might have particular challenges, and we can tackle each one.

A hybrid or electric pickup isn't available on fleets. That's going to be a different challenge from buying a regular car, because there are lots of options.

So procurement category by category can have individual challenges as well.

4:20 p.m.

Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.

Jean Yip

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. Blaikie, you will be our final intervenor.

You have three minutes.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you.

Does the greening government strategy extend to Crown corporations, as well as government departments?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

It does not extend to the Crown corporations. However, we have reached out to them and are working with them. Many have sustainability plans or carbon emission targets as well.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Is there a justification for why Crown corporations weren't included? Does government not see it as part of their portfolio they're responsible for?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

Traditionally, where policies apply to departments and agencies, and there's a different relationship with Crown corporations since they're more market-driven, etc., we've expanded the number of departments to include all the departments within the Financial Administration Act, schedule I.1, section 2. It is essentially everything up to Crown corporations.

All our expertise and networks and interdepartmental committees include Crown corporations, so we're working with them as well.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

One of the things that has happened many times over the last number of decades is that certain government assets and/or services end up being privatized by various governments. When that happens, what happens to the emissions or environmental impact of those assets? Do they disappear off the books, or would all things remain the same?

If a building is sold and then its space is leased back, does that not have any effect on the emissions bookkeeping? I'm using that as a specific example, but I'm interested in other types of examples as well.

How does that affect your emissions bookkeeping?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

We use international protocols on how we account for these things.

Let's say we have two buildings and consolidate into one and sell off the other one. If all our operations are in that one building, it will lower our emissions.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

If you had two buildings and you sold one and then you leased it back, what would that do?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

Then we still account for that, because it's not about privatization.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Okay.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

Ultimately, if we lower our footprint because we're doing the same operations in a lesser footprint, that will lower our emissions. But if we change the same operation, still in two buildings, and we change the ownership or change something else, then it still—

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Does it become more difficult for you to get that information if you're having to get it from a supplier, whether that's a landlord or supplier of other goods and services, as opposed to producing them within government?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Centre for Greening Government, Treasury Board Secretariat

Nick Xenos

I think, going forward, not really because we're aware of it. Sometimes when we have to go back 10 years and baseline things, there could be different challenges there.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, I'm going to suspend now for just a few moments while we get our second panel to the table and establish a video link with our video conference panellists from Richmond Hill.

I want to thank all of our panellists and guests for being very kind with your comments. Thank you for your time to appear before us today.

We will suspend for two or three minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, we'll reconvene.

In our second hour we have representatives from Clean Energy Canada and CanadaCleantech Alliance. Both our panellists have opening statements.

Madam Petrevan, you're up first. You have approximately 10 minutes for your opening statement, and the floor is yours.

4:30 p.m.

Sarah Petrevan Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada

Thank you.

Good afternoon, members of the committee. I'm pleased to join you. Thank you for letting me appear remotely today.

My name is Sarah Petrevan. I'm a senior policy adviser for Clean Energy Canada. We are a climate and energy think tank based out of the Morris J Wosk Centre for Dialogue at Simon Fraser University, but I am based in Ontario.

I've been asked to speak with you this afternoon about the policies and programs the Government of Canada is bringing to bear via the greening government strategy.

Canada has made tackling climate change a policy priority most prominently through its pan-Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change. Through this, the federal government has committed to modernizing procurement practices, adopting clean energy and technologies and prioritizing opportunities to help Canadian businesses grow, demonstrate new technologies and create jobs. While seemingly a tall order, it's vital for government to play a leadership role in the transition to a low-carbon economy and to do so in such a way that not only reduces pollution, but also increases our country's global economic competitiveness.

As you are well aware, the federal government has committed to a 40% cut in greenhouse gas emissions in its operations by 2030, an 80% cut by 2050 and to using 100% clean electricity by 2025. These goals are to be realized through the greening government strategy, which was released close to this time last year.

Clean Energy Canada was proud to play a leadership role in convening a broad group of stakeholders including academia, business, industry and innovators to provide the government with collaborative solutions to complex problems, and we believe that ultimately helped to inform the strategy. I would be pleased to share our experiences and any written material we've produced with members of the committee.

The government should be applauded for their work and the successful launch of the strategy. We look forward to its continued implementation and would welcome its prioritization within government. The sooner we do it, the sooner we'll begin to enjoy the results.

While there is an abundance of components within the strategy that I could dive deeply into, I will use the remainder of my time to highlight how and why the greening government strategy should be seen as an economic driver for Canada, as well as the broader opportunities contained within it.

Simply put, tackling climate change requires cleaner, smarter, less wasteful technologies throughout the economy. Clean technology, or clean tech, is commonly understood to encompass new technology and related business models offering competitive returns for investors and customers while providing solutions to global challenges. Climate change is one of those global challenges that have motivated and inspired a boom in clean tech, with the development of clean energy solutions ranging from solar panels to smart grids to electric vehicles and more. Canada has many strengths in this arena. This year a record-breaking 13 businesses were named to the prestigious Global Cleantech 100 list.

With the global market estimated to be worth $1 trillion U.S. and expected to surpass $2.5 trillion U.S. by 2020, and close to 30% of Canada's GDP derived from exports, there is much to be gained by seizing a spot in this global marketplace. Therefore, it is imperative the greening government strategy leverage clean tech adoption to help meet its goals. To accomplish this, the strategy contains one of the most important policy tools recognized around the world to help reduce emissions, increase market share, mitigate risk and deliver cost-competitive solutions. That tool is procurement.

Procurement is a means for Canada to get results. To put it more bluntly, the only way we are going to do anything differently is by buying things differently. Governments across Canada spend about 33% of their money on the purchase of goods and services. That's equal to close to 13% of Canada's gross domestic product. The federal government, therefore, has economic heft as a major purchaser within its own economy, and it can and should use this power to stimulate and lead markets. By doing so, Canada will join the ranks of at least 56 other national governments and many local governments that have recognized the power of procurement in supporting their environmental and economic policy goals.

Canada will also be following the advice of world-leading economic institutions, including the OECD, the World Bank, the United Nations and the World Trade Organization.

Traditionally, Canada and its provincial and municipal governments have relied on grant programs and tax credits to support innovative sectors—everything from communications to pharmaceuticals to clean tech. These financial incentives help entrepreneurs enter the market with new or improved goods and services to meet latent or unmet demand. While there are many benefits to this approach, it also comes with inherent challenges.

Funding levels can fluctuate because of budgeting or a shift in government priorities. Program dollars are often spread across many priority areas in small amounts that are insufficient to give promising companies the boost they need to succeed in commercialization. Finally, programs that aren’t linked to the needs of the marketplace also suffer because there is not enough demand to support the increased supply.

In recent years, countries such as Finland, the United States and the United Kingdom, alongside emerging economies, including China and Brazil, have adopted more targeted policies, such as procurement, to support innovation. Procurement works because it links government support for innovation to the needs of the marketplace. It also provides a stable source of demand, which is a key attractor for private investment. Therefore, procurement should be seen as a vital piece of the greening government strategy, much more than just greening what government purchases for its own use, like paper, pens, computer servers, etc. Rather, deploying modern procurement practices can provide value for money, while reducing emissions and spurring technology in government buildings, energy supply, fleet vehicles, and even in areas deemed by government as special purpose.

Modern procurement practices used around the world built the world's first electric ferry in Norway, which is powered by Canadian technology. It's creating electric buses for public transit that can be charged in five minutes and building a low-carbon passenger train through Germany. Both examples, again, use Canadian clean technology. Procurement can buy you an electric school bus or build you a net zero carbon building. The possibilities are truly endless.

By nature, I am ambitious. I have to be. I work in climate and energy policy.

To conclude, I want to leave members of the committee with a slightly bolder idea for government leadership, beyond simply looking at how it tackles the low-carbon economic transition in its own operations.

In addition to leveraging its spending power for its own operational needs, the federal government plays a substantial role in provincial, territorial and municipal procurement, when it provides a share of the funding required for transportation, energy, social services, education and other projects via its infrastructure program. Under the current government, the size of that investment is reported to be $180 billion over the next 12 years.

Canada not only has the ability to be a leader in clean tech, but also in low-carbon cost-effective building materials. While the greening government strategy recognizes this and is currently working on a process to prioritize these products to help them meet goals around reducing carbon in areas such as real property, Canada should consider looking outside this box and deepening its impact by partnering with other levels of government. Aspects of the greening government strategy, including clean-tech adoption and modern procurement practices, can generate a magnified positive impact and create a larger, broader competitive low-carbon benefit to Canada's economy. It's an exciting opportunity.

Once again, I thank the members of the committee for inviting me to speak this afternoon. When appropriate, I would be pleased to take questions.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Ms. Petrevan.

We also have with us representatives from the CanadaCleantech Alliance.

Monsieur Leclerc, I understand that you have an opening statement. Would you care to introduce your colleague and then proceed with your statement, please?

4:35 p.m.

Denis Leclerc Chairman of the Board and President and Chief Executive Officer, Écotech Québec, CanadaCleantech Alliance

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My name is Denis Leclerc, and I am chairman of the board and president and chief executive officer of Écotech Québec. We represent Quebec's entire clean tech cluster. I also chaired the board of directors of the CanadaCleantech Alliance. I am joined by Jean-François Béland.