Government Operations Committee on April 10th, 2019

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

Certainly based on my experience, for those who have acquired a physical or mental health impairment, the support is not there.

I want to give you a bit of an illustration of that. When I look at workers' compensation systems around the world that deal with the same type of issue—in this case it's industrial accidents, although the same applies on the non-occupational side where we don't have the same structure—all of their intervention strategies are targeted at three months.

We know that when an individual with a disability has been out of work for three months, their chances of ever going back to work are dramatically reduced. That is just something that happens. It's a function of who we are as human beings. You lose your self-confidence and you are depressed.

From a structural point of view, we could be doing a hell of a lot more in this area, but we almost have a system set up that mitigates against individuals successfully reintegrating.

We have the same problem, as I said earlier, in the workers' compensation world, where if an individual has been out of work for a year, their chances of ever going back to work are down to less than 10%.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

What do you think we should do to address that?

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

I think that comes down to the point Mr. Semianiw made earlier that the structures need to be in place at DND so there is a type of support for the individuals so that they are being looked after. It would be a mentorship-type program. I want to expand on this a bit.

The greatest success in getting individuals who have been on social security for a long time back to work has been in the Commonwealth of Australia, and that has been by providing individuals with job coaches, in the same way as, in this case, providing individuals with support so that they are basically not left hanging out there. That is really the approach.

Yes, it's probably going to take some significant resources up front, but at the end of the day, as a society and for the individuals, we'll more than recover not only the financial cost associated with that but also the tremendous human social suffering cost that's associated with collective failure.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to our final five-minute intervention, and then I'll be suspending so we can get our next panel in here.

Madam Yip, you have five minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming.

Mr. Zimmerman was talking about mentorship and job coaches, and I think that's a great idea.

On that note, Ms. Lowther, you talked about targets. On one hand, Mr. Zimmerman is talking about changing the structure and then, on the other hand, you're talking about targets. What do you think would be more effective, or do you think having a combination of both in place would help?

[Debbie Lowther]

It certainly wouldn't hurt to have a combination of both in place.

My suggestion for targets is, as I mentioned, that when you have measurable outcomes, it's much easier to determine success. If government departments were challenged with hiring, say, 22% of veterans among their new hires, there would be some accountability there. I think targets are not a bad idea.

[LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw]

You'd have to hold deputies accountable.

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

Certainly I would very much support the notion of targets, because what gets measured gets done, and what gets measured and gets done drives behaviour. Hopefully, if we drive behaviour long enough, ultimately we will change the culture of the place.

[LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw]

The United States has been through this journey long before we have. They are now at targets because going out just using a policy process machinery to try to make it work, which is good, didn't work.

At the end of the day, when they're in place, what do you do with bureaucracy? As much as it doesn't want them— it didn't want them in 2011; we asked for targets—you put targets in place, and you have the deputies responsible for their targets to the clerk.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Richards, do you have any comments on this?

[Andrew Richards]

I can't really comment on that side of things because I guess I'm on the flip side. I'm the person who left the military of my own choosing. I know it's very different psychologically and mentally if you decide you're ready to transition, and you've released voluntarily and moved onto a career versus.... A lot of my friends who have been diagnosed with PTSD, have service dogs or were injured or wounded didn't want to leave, but they were medically released. It's a different headspace. I can't comment so much on that process, because I knew I wanted other career goals, to have a family and settle down, and I worked towards it. It seems there were a lot of barriers external to that that came up.

[LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw]

But like you, they wanted one thing, and that was purpose. With purpose, it brings a lot of pieces together. It's clearly shown on the research. With purpose, mental health is better. Many things are better. I'm sure Wolfgang would agree. It all comes together, and that's what this is all about, finding purpose for veterans who have so much more to give to the country after their time in service.

[Andrew Richards]

I guess I would agree with you.

One of my best friends was medically released, and he's on a pension. He has a service dog. He had a lot of issues. The marriage is falling apart. He was talking of flying out here yesterday, and his question was, “How different are you from the military? You're still in a uniform; you're still protecting Canada and you still carry a sidearm. You really didn't do much different; you just did it differently." Yes, I would agree with that, the purpose.

[LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw]

It's not about getting money. You can give me millions of dollars. That's not purpose. It's what do I wake up every morning for? That's where this policy is so important, to kind of bring to life.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I don't know if you can answer this in one minute, but last September the president of the Public Service Commission of Canada said that there are issues of a mismatch between the way veterans sometimes describe their experience and the skills that they've acquired in the military.

Do you believe that there's a mismatch? What can be done to improve the mismatch or the perception of a mismatch?

[LGen (Ret'd) Walter Semianiw]

Governments have been working for decades on a skills translator to try to figure out how to equate what we did into civilian life. How is an infantry soldier in the armoured corps...? It can be done; it's not that it can't be. It comes back to what Wolfgang and you had said, which is that you need someone to translate that and be the concierge to sit down and say what it is you need to say.

For example, I was part of a unit during the war in Afghanistan, in 2005.

What does that mean on a civilian street?

It can be done; it's not that it can't be. It's just never been done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thanks very much.

To all of our witnesses, I want to thank you very much for being here. More than that, I want to thank you for your service to your country.

Should you have additional information that you wish to share with our committee as we continue with this study, I would encourage you to send that information to our clerk, to help us with our study. There's never enough time to give witnesses a chance to tell their side of the story and give examples that would be of benefit to the committee. You've done a wonderful job. I thank you for that.

You are now dismissed.

Colleagues, we will suspend for a couple of minutes while we wait for our next panellists to approach the table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, we are back in public again.

We have two individuals with us today. I want to welcome both of them.

We have, as individuals, Danielle Boutilier and Katherine Lamy.

I understand that Madam Lamy will be going first. Both of you have five-minute opening statements. After those, we will go into our round of questioning from all of our committee members.

Madam Lamy, you're up.

[Katherine Lamy, Nurse Practitioner Captain (Retired), As an Individual]

For those who don't know me, my name is Katherine Lamy. I served 21 and a half years in the Canadian Armed Forces. I served in both the primary reserves and the regular force. During that time I completed various courses, positions, taskings and deployments, more specifically the ice storm in 1998; Operation Athena, Roto 3 in Kabul, Afghanistan, in 2005; and Roto 6 in Kandahar, Afghanistan, from 2008 to 2009.

During my service I suffered several injuries, including from a special duty area.

During my service, I noticed how many veterans were ill-prepared to transition from military to civilian life. The longer members serve in the military, the more they become institutionalized. By that I mean many become accustomed to having much, if not most, of their normal day-to-day activities coordinated and managed by the system. The following is a short list of the most common of these, but not all: medical care; prescriptions and payment for; referrals to specialists, such as ortho, neurology, etc.; medical travel; medical assessments; follow-ups; diagnostic imaging; dental assessments and work; rehab for addictions, such as with alcohol and drugs, including seeking approval for and payment; their pay is locally managed; their kit and equipment is provided; their moves related to postings and the coordination of payment for; job security, generally no need to create a resume or complete an interview, etc.; financial issues, often coordinated and managed with the chain of command, the member and a financial adviser; wills and power of attorney; and many more.

Most of the time, all of that is coordinated in the background without having the member overly involved. It's quite seamless. As a result, the member becomes dependent and reliant on the system, and thus institutionalized for those. When members transition out, there's no one and no process in place to help guide and assist members through it. I know this because I went through it. I was being rehabilitated post-operatively for a hip injury that required extensive work and I had to lift and carry all of my kit and equipment. I know from a clinician standpoint—I'm a nurse practitioner—that this should never have happened as it contributed to further damage to the hip and it required additional surgery.

Further, no one tells members to save up money for their release because it can take several months for the pension, earnings loss benefit and SISIP to kick in and be in place to provide payments as a medical release. This can be quite stressful for the members and their families as many have to pay a mortgage, rent, groceries, car insurance, child support and so forth, and they may default on these. Banks and creditors are not so forgiving when you owe them money, and despite your telling them you're waiting for these payment sources to be in place, they rarely show sympathy.

As a nurse practitioner, I've treated patients in both the military and civilian health care systems. Veterans releasing, and once transitioned, often have heightened stress and anxiety levels. Some are unable to work immediately in the coming months and some not at all. Others are deciding if they can return to school and if they will be able to be successful in graduating and finding the right job. Others are simply too injured, psychologically and/or physically, so that returning to the workforce is simply not an option. As a result, the income and employment disparity becomes extremely apparent within the first few months of transitioning out of the military.

Once members are out of the military, they do not have that safety cushion of a system looking after them. Some have pre-existing addiction issues that have never been fully addressed nor properly or effectively treated. This can contribute to losing their home, family, kids, job, car and much more. It becomes a perfect storm.

What I ask from you today is to initiate and coordinate a mechanism to be in place where veterans are not left to fend for themselves when transitioning out of the military. I was medically released in February 2018. Despite being in school to become a nurse practitioner, I too struggled with my injuries. I was fortunate my colleagues and staff in the nursing program at the University of Ottawa were extremely supportive. Despite this, no one from my chain of command contacted me in my last six months in the military to see if I needed any kind of support.

I now work for both the Queensway Carleton Hospital and Spartan Wellness. At Spartan Wellness, we assist and guide veterans with some of their medical needs. Veterans need this kind of guidance and assistance to have the proper tools in their tool box to transition out from the Canadian Armed Forces. Otherwise, this is a failure of leadership at all levels.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thanks you.

Ms. Boutilier, you have five minutes, please.

[Danielle Boutilier, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Danielle Boutilier. I'm from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, the unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people, known as Unama’ki.

I will continue in English, but feel free to ask your questions in French.

I'm here today as the wife and caregiver of an injured veteran who was released. The uniform is my public service uniform that I've worn for almost 20 years. I'm here on other business.

I'm here today to speak to my experiences as the wife of an injured veteran, mother of four and a public service manager. As the wife of an injured soldier, I only have a few things to offer. The transition to life after service is a very long road and without the support of your family, a network of friends and supportive people, it is sometimes overwhelming. The fact that troops are released with a list of courses that most people cannot decipher and a CV that was written with a template from Microsoft Word software, and have no pre-release training on how to apply for a public service job or how to sell themselves in an interview became very apparent to me during my husband's release from the military.

With his transition and vocational rehab through JPSU, I made a conscious decision to help others who were transitioning find meaningful work within my own organization, as well as to assist them with the tools to become a public servant: CV writing, public service courses, training and mock interviews, and the introduction to all the non-government organizations like VETS Canada, that Ms. Lowther spoke of before. She and I know each other because our family had to use her service.

I am fortunate enough to have been in the public service for 20 years and have participated in many selection processes, both as the interviewer and the interviewee. I realize that the way we screen and the questions we ask during the interview process look for as much information as possible. The more you say, the more likely you are to hit all the points they're asking for in the question. Military people do not do this. It's inculcated into them to cut out the fluff and get straight to the point. This training works and is tried and true for them in their role within the CF; however, it severely hinders their CV writing skills and interview skills. As a public service manager, when I ask them to tell about an unsafe situation in the work environment, and they ask if I mean in Canada, and you say, yes, they say there are none.

I feel that part of their release should be mandatory training in both these important skills. These optional trainings are offered, and I am sure you do use them, but I feel that a quantitative review of the number of released members compared to the number of these optional trainings that are given and taken should be mandatory.

Vocational rehab is one of the most successful programs offered via JPSU, the joint personnel support units in the Canadian Forces. It allows members the chance to "try on" an employer and the public service gains a workforce and a skill set that is rich with talent. One of the roadblocks for members transitioning to the public service during vocational rehab is the fact that their service number is not recognized as a PRI meaning that they cannot complete online training with the Canada School of Public Service or use MyKey for any of the encryption that's required.

As an example, an orderly room sergeant with 25 years' experience cannot come on vocational rehab training within the public service without a PRI to obtain a MyKey, and can't work as a timekeeper for the Phoenix pay system because a MyKey is needed to log in and do the job.

To truly transition, you need to receive the given responsibilities and true picture of the role in the public service. It's not being given and only a small portion of the job is given to them. The transition of leave service dates, as Andrew spoke to earlier, takes a long time to happen with the pension centre.

I also feel that the Treasury Board relocation policy needs to be examined. When the veterans hiring policy was released, it allowed CF members to apply for public service jobs as an internal candidate, but this change meant they cannot have the full advantage of an internal candidate. The policy fails to recognize the limitations of the relocation when it comes to members both of DND and the RCMP. There are restrictions for those members when they apply for relocation: years of service and reason for release. A medically released member gets a full relocation, but anyone with under 20 years of service does not.

If a member on his own, like Andrew, finds a position within the public service, makes it through the application process and is the successful candidate, he can be denied the relocation assistance due to having only 10 years of service and no medical release, whereas an internal candidate applying for a job obtains full relocation through the Treasury Board policy. The member, either RCMP or DND, is considered to be an initial appointee to the public service and is offered up to $5,000, with receipts, whereas the internal candidate is eligible for full relocation. This is a huge barrier to candidates who would need to pick up and move their lives across the country for an opportunity when a similar relocation policy was used to move them to their current address.

I also feel I was privileged to be the wife of a soldier. It gave me another perspective on the hiring of veterans and their progress throughout the journey of finding a meaningful role in the public service. I feel that if the Canada School of Public Service were to offer familiarization training on the hiring of veterans, it might alleviate some of the trepidation that may be associated with hiring a veteran. Do they have PTSD? Will they need to be accommodated? How will they fit into my team?

Training on their roles, and the various types of training listed on their MPRR, which is a giant list of courses, would give great assistance, and is something that would not need to be recreated. The Canadian Forces Liaison Council does this now for reservists. The skill set of most veterans in leadership, communication and ethos is beyond the expectations of any manager, but we need to help both the veteran and the public service managers see the value.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll start our seven-minute round of interventions with Madam Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much. I didn't have a chance to thank the previous group. Thank you for the service you provide to the country.

I'm so glad that we're studying the hiring of veterans, because it opened up a Pandora's box. I didn't even know how much bureaucracy and how many barriers there are. I was under the impression that when you leave the military, whether voluntarily or on a medical basis, there is some sort of a support group, some coaching and a transition. I was looking at some of the things VETS Canada was talking about, in terms of the concierge services. They were talking about financial security, health, life skills and preparedness, etc.

I look at you and see that you have been to Kandahar, and you've done so much work. Your skill sets and resumé should be able to convince the public service that you know how to reconcile, how to take a situation and turn it around and that you have leadership skills. If there is no coach for you, how do you even translate your skill sets into civilian language? You've mentioned some barriers. We need your suggestions on some of the critical challenges to be addressed, the reality of the situation and how we can improve the system.

I think one of the solutions somebody suggested was to put Veterans Affairs and DND together, so that there is a lack of bureaucracy. Would you agree with that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

If I may interrupt, you'll probably notice the flashing lights, which means the bells are ringing. We have a vote. However, with unanimous consent of this committee we can continue to sit for at least another 15 or 20 minutes, since it takes less than 10 minutes to get to the House of Commons upstairs.