Government Operations Committee on May 1st, 2019

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I apologize.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

First, I thank all of you for your service.

I'm sitting back here listening to all of you who have given so much for our country. As you are stepping out of your military service, how do you determine what you want to do and how do you determine what you're qualified for?

Any one of you can answer that question.

[Brian McKenna]

I'll take a stab at that.

First of all, why you join the military is exceptionally different from why you stay. The people who generally stay and join for the same reason tend to get out pretty quickly.

There are those who have done multiple years, such as the gentleman on the screen here. The lady has done multiple years in different parts of it. She fell in love with some part of that system, as I did. Folks such as these, and such as me, actually really like wearing a maple leaf on our arms. It's not something that just passes into the back of our minds when we retire. We go searching for other things we can do to wear that maple leaf. We go searching for other things we can do to help veterans, whether it's through advocacy or working for something else that has the maple leaf.

I absolutely believe people leave the military satisfied with their service but still wanting that. They still want to be connected to that. It's a big deal, and the rest of the government should be taking advantage of that.

[Jacques Fauteux]

I feel the same way. I left the Armed Forces at 24 and a half years, short of a full pension, because I had an opportunity in government that I couldn't refuse and I wanted to serve my country. VIA Rail did the same thing for me, and I'm proud to say that I've pretty much served Canadians for over 30 years.

Like you, it drives me.

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

You hit the nail on the head, especially for CBSA. You can feel it and you can see it as a sense of defending Canada, stopping bad people from coming in. That's very basic, but it still touches the emotional part of you.

Take advantage of that.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Great.

I have an idea that I want to bounce off you.

My background is in consulting. I look at issues and then I ask whether there is a solution that I could put forward.

I'm listening to the transfer of values. I'm listening to equivalency, education. I am seeing a set of skills on one side and a set of requirements and job availability on the other side within the Crown corporations.

Do you think it's value-added if a mapping exercise is done that says that veterans with this qualification fit into jobs such as this, and we create the pool? Then we create a concept that we've used in our government before, such as the pods concept, where we pair ex-military veterans with the HR manager who's doing the hiring and uses this pool of veterans that are coming in, uses that mapping and tries to make sure that the priority is then adhered to, therefore making it much easier for the veterans to not only get the equivalency but also get the jobs.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Brian McKenna]

I think that's one of the ways to go. Also, on top of that, you will find throughout the federal government that we all obey the same Treasury Board laws. We all have the same equitable hiring practices.

You'll also find—I'll take a guess here—that the other folks on the screen with me here, probably this gentleman here, have done a purchasing course for the government at some time, because it's the same one. They've probably done a harassment prevention course, which is the same one. They've done all these things.

Something that does what you're speaking of, sir, would be very helpful, but also the fact that there are resource management specialists in the branch at which these folks work. Why wouldn't they, almost from a predatory point of view, be trying to hire people with that skill set from defence?

Therefore, yes, it's really a struggle when you look at how this is still being held back.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Great.

I don't know how much time is left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

That's it.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

To all our witness, first of all, thank you for your appearance here today. Secondly and quite obviously, thank you for your service to our country. It is greatly appreciated, always has been and always will be.

Lastly, should you have additional information that you think would be useful to our committee as we continue our study on the hiring practices to get more veterans into the public service, any suggestions would be very much appreciated. I would encourage you to submit those directly to our clerk. Those suggestions or recommendations, should you have additional ones, will help form part of our final report.

Once again, thank you for being here.

Colleagues, we will suspend for just a few moments while we set up for our next video conference and our next panel of witnesses.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We are having some difficulty locating a few of our witnesses. Two were supposed to be here in person—we haven't located them yet—and two by video conference. So far, we have only one by video conference. From Burnaby, British Columbia, we have Madam Kerry Gibson, president of EcoCentury Technologies.

I suggest we start with Madam Gibson's opening statement and if we still have no other witnesses before us we'll go directly into questions. If more witnesses appear by video conference or in person, we'll just adapt as they come before us.

Madam Gibson, thank you very much for being here. I hope you can hear us all right.

You have five minutes or so for your opening statement. After that we'll go directly into questions from our committee.

The floor is yours.

[Kerry Gibson, President, EcoCentury Technologies, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

After their history of service, Canadian veterans deserve the opportunity to transition with ease and full government support into civilian life, which includes suitable and satisfying employment. Employment, in particular, serves more benefit than simply financial gain. It offers purpose, support and social connection—all of which offer greater care to our deserving veterans than simply offering medical provisions. In fact, fulfilling employment offers a proactive approach to countering the negative ramifications of a person experiencing trauma. This not only adds to their economic contribution, but diminishes external resource requirements.

Veterans may not return to civilian life as they had left it. They may possibly be compromised physically and/or emotionally. After sustaining such injuries, veterans would require additional considerations to transition into a future world of work.

It is those who have sustained disabilities from service who have been primarily left behind. Federal officials have been candid in realizing this deficit. Therefore, we have this committee assessment. As these disabilities have been attained through service to our government, it is, therefore, our government's honourable duty to rectify and remediate those deficits as best they can. Gender nuance has been somewhat addressed and accepted, and ableism requires similar attention.

Limited services to help assess skill sets to aid in this transition are being launched in academia with the initiative and guidance of people like Dr. Kevin Wainwright, whose tools can be used at BCIT to adapt military learning to civilian vocations. He has shown that such skills are indeed transferable, with accessible and moderate upgrades in training.

Current hiring practices in both public and private sectors refuse to address the intersectionality of employment of persons with disabilities, specifically physical disabilities due to injury. There is limited acceptance of the belief that these persons are indeed capable of productivity. Such discriminatory bias is deeply cultural as there is little example to prove otherwise. Without encouraging this sector of employable individuals, there is resistance to investing in the modifications required to accommodate.

Therefore, it is the public sector's duty to lead in example and in the practical development of modified infrastructure that encourages inclusion, both in the design and execution of change in space and culture. It is always a government obligation to lead in such forms of social justice. Private sector can then be encouraged to follow suit through example and proof of success.

What this would look like in implementation would be that public workplaces should be required to be upgraded to accommodate varying levels of physical ability. They would be HR trained to be cognizant of such things as sensitivities and triggers and to gain understanding of PTSD, for example.

There are many benefits to employers, employees and those served by the public sector when building on inclusive hiring practices that hire those of differing abilities and life experiences, such as veterans. For instance, public sector occupation offers stability and support, including medical benefits, for healthy futures and participation in civilian economies. The structure and hierarchy of the public sector is well suited to a military-trained mindset. Established public sector systems readily provide training opportunities within each context, which are ideally adaptable for ease of transition. Veterans might potentially experience continued pride in serving one's country.

The public would see employees with varying abilities and the culture of work would normalize the presence of the otherwise abled, leading to other inclusive actions. This would continue to shift perspective regarding usefulness, thus offering the private sector a subsequent understanding of the resources available through optimizing the skills of retired service personnel.

Government would benefit from having those who they service more effectively served by those who reflect them, their needs and their experiences through shared understanding and empathy.

Also, data suggests that such efforts mimic similar data on gender inclusion, which reflects increased productivity and profitability for the inclusive employer. Until inclusive hiring practices are commonplace, those given the chance to prove their worth in public service tend to show heightened commitment and loyalty. Practically speaking, initial training was at great investment and that investment will not wash away if redirected.

Career transition services are expected to budget millions annually, with the number of those affected multiplying exponentially year by year. With thousands readying to return to the workforce, thousands will be available for placement. It is radically pigeonholing to assume that persons with disabilities can only manage simple tasks. That is overwhelmingly false. It is merely that those abilities have not had the opportunity to be proven in a larger context.

Studies show that it is necessary to educate employers on the abilities of the disabled, as current stigmas lead to misinformation and inaccurate understandings. This leads to the failure to hire qualified candidates, due to perceived lack of qualification. In the end, beyond raising the GDP, deterring unhealthy behaviours that may manifest in profound medical costs, and promoting diverse and productive communities with a place for all—beyond all that—it is just the right thing to do.

Thank you to the committee members for your attention to this concern.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, just before we move on, unfortunately, as much as we appreciate Ms. Gibson's presence with us here today, she may be the only witness we have.

We've experienced great difficulty getting Master Corporal Grabowski from Whitehorse via video conference. We're still attempting that, but it doesn't look like we're going to be very successful. We just got word that Madam Sadler, from the office of the assistant deputy minister at National Defence, will not be able to join us today, and we have not yet located Mr. Crego.

What I'm saying, colleagues, is that the witness before us may be the only witness we have. Having said that, we'll go into seven-minute rounds of questioning. We'll go as long as we have questions for the one witness we have with us.

We'll start with Mr. Peterson for seven minutes.

Mr. Peterson, we have you on our list as number one.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay. Madam Yip is going to take my space, because she missed hers the last time. I'll be second on the list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

That's fine.

Madam Yip, you have seven minutes.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It's nice to see you on the screen.

You talked about gender nuance. Do you find it's easier for women with military backgrounds to get access to or have jobs in the public service?

[Kerry Gibson]

Not at all. I was referring to gender nuance as the reflection of our government's efforts for inclusivity in gender equality overall, since military veterans are presented with the same struggles in employment as in any other sector.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You talked about the physically disabled being quite capable of being productive. What can we do to change these beliefs with employers?

[Kerry Gibson]

As mentioned, I believe it's leading by example.

You can't see under the table, but I come with a set of wheels myself, and I've done fairly okay in my world of work. However, many of my peers have struggled to find their place. They have struggled despite Ph.D.s, master's degrees and other such qualifications to be considered. In fact, according to Ontario statistics, I am currently valued at 44¢ on the dollar, which I find rather objectionable, as I believe that my worth is far more than the value of my legs.

Veterans coming out of the military context and into the civilian context would benefit quite strongly from offerings from the public service of a more welcoming culture, and that's exactly what it is—a changing culture—that needs to happen. Our government needs to be the first to step forward and say that these millions of people across Canada, who perhaps have different abilities that you can see a little more readily than others, are worthy to contribute to our economies.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you feel that the change in culture is enough, or do you think there needs to be stronger enforcement, such as, perhaps, quotas?

[Kerry Gibson]

It's an interesting question. I know that the NRC, for instance, has very strong quotas trying to boost women in STEM, for instance, getting women hired in STEM to fill those roles fifty-fifty within government. Perhaps that's something we need to look at. We definitely need to build in infrastructure. For example, the last video conferencing centre, when we tried to meet the last time, was incredibly inaccessible when I tried to enter it, even though this was being used for a federal purpose. It was inaccessible on multiple levels—entrances, parking, washroom facilities—and this was being used by the government.

So take a look at the physical infrastructure that needs to be built to accommodate those of us who are wheelchair-bound, for instance, and then perhaps look at the technologies that are available for those who have hearing issues or blindness or any other multitude of varying abilities. If that infrastructure is built out, I think that is an actual statement that perhaps they might be welcome into that workplace. Quite often when I enter meetings, my physical inabilities get grouped with intellectual inabilities and people speak slowly to me. Perhaps there could be training as well within these organizations to understand that disabilities are not something to be scared of and that people should not be ostracized or relegated to, as I mentioned, “simple tasks”.

I just got back from an ILO conference in Iceland and that was a question they wanted to discuss—how the disabled could be set simple tasks, as if we're only useful to run the recycling centres.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You mentioned HR needing to be trained to recognize triggers and sensitivities. Could you elaborate on that?

[Kerry Gibson]

Absolutely. Coming out of a military context, there will be multiple variables of distress. PTSD is incredibly commonplace. As we've seen with our millennial population, they seem to be prone to acquiring PTSD as well. Moving forward, I think HR would really need to have a cognizance of what that is and what that means in the future world of work. I think it would just be sensible for them to have that understanding and training.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You mentioned that millennials are more apt to acquire PTSD. What do you mean by that? Are they different from somebody my age, for instance?