Evidence of meeting #171 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you all very much.
Colleagues, we'll go to five-minute rounds to try to get as many questions in as possible.
We will start with Mr. Jowhari, for five minutes, please.
May 6th, 2019 / 4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of you for your testimony and for the service you have provided for us and for this country.
I'm going to start with Mr. Généreux.
Mr. Généreux, you were very brief with your opening remarks, but I managed to pick up two things. You highlighted the fact that there are administrative obstacles, and you also talked about 10 recommendations.
We didn't get the chance to hear those 10 recommendations. However, can you explain what you meant by “administrative obstacles” and give us the top three recommendations that you have?
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
For the administrative obstacles, it's things like this: I served 34 years, I was considered bilingual for 33 years and I had a top secret qualification. One of the key issues right now blocking me from getting access is that I'm considered unilingual because I haven't had the test yet—I've been waiting for six months now—a test to prove that I'm bilingual, although I was bilingual enough to serve in the Canadian Forces. It's the same thing for the secret classification. I'm just regarded as secret right now. It took six weeks to receive it. There are many obstacles that make the process very complicated.
Also, there is getting services for such things as we spoke about earlier, getting, let's say, the cover sheet right, which is almost like a secret art that nobody knows and few people are willing to help with. In fact, I had to seek the help from a retired deputy minister for my cover sheet because I was denied access from VAC, for the thing that they're supposed to help us with. Many obstacles are making the process to get into the public service complicated.
On the recommendations.... I thought you had been provided the translated sheet. I provided a sheet—
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Apologies, we do have the 10 recommendations Mr. Généreux has, and they will be distributed.
My apologies for the interruption, sir.
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I would say there are many obstacles that need to be lifted, anything to do with having VAC or the Canadian Forces help us to accelerate our security classification renewal so we're ready to be hired. The bilingual status, too, helps. The priority management system is confusing. We're not getting feedback, as some of my colleagues have stated, so we need to have feedback. Within VAC there's total confusion about which program is offered. In fact, information should be shared....
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you. I'm going to go to Mr. Hicks.
Mr. Hicks, you indicated that we need to take a top-down approach and make sure there's real accountability. Can you expand on a process that you want to be changed and expand on what you mean by top-down accountability vis-à-vis that specific process?
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
What we're looking at is that there is no benefit for hiring veterans. We're talking about getting veterans into the civil service, where our pensions can be topped up, for those of us who have them. For those of us who don't, we're a little closer. We're talking about getting us into the civil service. There are benefits for hitting quotas as far as being bilingual: What's the percentage of your staff that are bilingual? How many are visible minorities and how many are females, and all the rest? There is absolutely no incentive, and there's no accountability, for hiring managers in any job competition to bring any of us on board.
From a top-down perspective, there has to be a very clear delineation that says that they are supposed to grab these people and give them a shot, or if we have to go and implement a quota, it tells them they're not hitting 2% of staff for their recruiting requirement. Two per cent is probably a bit high considering how many veterans there are compared to the rest of the civilian population, but we have a right to see ourselves reflected in the civil service and we're not. Injured veterans have a slightly better chance and those who double-dip, go from being a colonel or a general into an executive, they do fantastically well. But most are like me. I don't have a pension. I have nothing.
When you ask for something specific, I say it has to be blanket. There has to be an accountability mechanism. If they're not hiring a veteran, if they're not hitting their targets, whoever that manager is, whatever department that is of the civil service, they have to be at least able to explain why.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Mr. McCauley, you have five minutes, please.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Great.
Thanks very much for all your information. It's very helpful.
Mr. Hicks, some of the things you brought up anger me greatly. Again, we have the veterans come before us with very clear issues, and then—I think you were sitting at the back—every time we get someone from the public service—
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
—they sit there and it's “look away, there are no issues here”. I really appreciate your coming forward because there are obviously a lot of issues. We take it all very seriously, in a non-partisan way, so I appreciate that.
Mr. Northey, you brought up the point about hiring managers who have someone else in mind. This study came out of another study we're doing on general hiring into the public service and we heard repeatedly of nepotism. It wasn't hiring my brother type of thing, but my friend hiring this person, hiring someone I knew, instead of someone else qualified. How rampant is that, if I could ask the four of you? Is it an anecdotal feeling? Have you experienced that, where even though by law they are required to hire you, they're finding ways not to?
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I get that strong sense when I talk to the vets back in Edmonton and here. It seems universal. This is the feeling they're all getting.
4:50 p.m.
Audit Officer, Office of the Assistant Deputy Minister, Review Services, As an Individual
As I was saying in my opening statement, I can count at least three times when I was told, “You shine on paper. Your cover letter is outstanding.” Back to the cover letter, trying to decipher how to write one of those and get through that initial stage when you actually get a hiring manager to talk to you.... They tell you that you shine, only to then tell you, “We have somebody internal who we really want to place in that position, so if you don't want it, we'd appreciate it. Then we'll move on and you'll move on.”
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I could add some personal experience. I applied to over 26 positions, 12 of which were with the DFO and Coast Guard, both of which you would think would be a pretty good transition. I was told in a phone conversation—not in writing—that I should not be applying for jobs above the PM-4 level, because those should be internal hires. That was directly from the director.
No one would put this in writing, but that's what's happening. If you want to transfer your skill set, they're going to be looking internally, 100%.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Again, that's confirmed some of my worst fears about the hiring process.
Mr. Généreux, what was your rank when you left the forces?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I was a Lieutenant Colonel. I was managing up to 600 people in my last position.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Maybe it was Mr. Zerebecki who commented that it's easier for officers to streamline into public service. I've read that repeatedly in reports from many organizations. Do you believe that's true? Is it just born of the fact they generally have different education or different skill sets, or do we have to look at why it's easier for officers than for non-commissioned or...?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Interestingly, four of the positions for which I was called for an interview.... In fact, I got called for interviews during the same week for the four positions. All four departments had received a copy of my CV via friends of mine. I applied formally, but I also had them circulate my CV. Some managers do not believe in the system, so if you know somebody inside who can circulate your CV and say, “Oh, by the way, there's a good candidate in the pool. Let's pick from the pool.”
I was in the pool, and my CV was also circulated on an informal network. We have to use the system, but then bypass the system in order to be called for an interview.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Right, but as a medical discharge, you're not in some pool.
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
There are two, in fact. There are positions posted that people within the priority hires can apply for, but the public service also has a pool of names. If a manager knows you're a priority and also in the pool, you may have more of a chance to be called for an interview.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Mr. Aubin, you have the floor for five minutes.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Robert Aubin NDP Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for joining us.
First, on behalf of all Canadians, thank you for your years of service. You deserve better than the obstacle course that you've just described.
My first question will be very quick. I would like you all to answer it.
At the start of the process, how were you personally informed of your eligibility for priority hiring? Did you find out on your own or did someone show you the steps to take?