Evidence of meeting #178 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Anyway, suffice it to say that they're nearing the end of their service life.
I want to know what the plan is to ensure that the Coast Guard is well equipped to continue to do the important work that Canadians rely on, now and well into the future.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
As this committee is well aware, we have, within the national shipbuilding strategy, the capacity to do both combat and non-combat ships. When the original book of work was given to these successful shipyards on the west and east coasts, the Coast Guard hadn't done the in-depth work it now has done to determine its long-term needs. Yes, these ships are very old, and as our Prime Minister has said, we don't want them to rust out. With the average age being 38 years, you can know there are some that would be many years older than that.
The Prime Minister announced, I think it was two weeks ago, a complete fleet renewal of the Coast Guard, with the first wave of that fleet renewal being up to 18 large ships, with a value of approximately $15.7 billion. There are 16 of them that are to be built at Seaspan as multi-purpose vessels, and two of them will be AOPS, Arctic and offshore patrol ships, at Irving. The benefit of having two AOPS as part of that mix is that the Coast Guard will get these ships five years earlier than if we went with 18 MPVs. Quite frankly, the technical capacity of AOPS is slightly different from MPVs, so again, it just adds to the fleet.
As part of this announcement, we will be looking to secure a third yard within the NSS to help us get the Coast Guard the additional capacity it needs beyond what I've just spoken about. The Coast Guard has not announced what that will be. However, from a PSPC perspective, we will be engaging in a competitive process to determine which yard that will be, and ensure that when the work is ready to be done and identified, that yard is prepared to do it.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you for that.
On the national shipbuilding strategy in general, what steps are in place to avoid any unnecessary production gaps, which, of course, slow down delivery and can effectively cost Canadians the jobs this shipbuilding strategy is supposed to create? What measures are in place to keep these production gaps to a minimum?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
I'd say a couple of things on that. First of all, experts around the world, including our national shipbuilding adviser, have long identified that production gaps cost government—or the people paying for ships—money. We know that when a workforce tools down, it costs more money to tool them back up. We also know that job loss is not good for a yard, in terms of both the workforce's ability to have a living and also the loss of the talent that will inevitably go elsewhere.
To address an identified production gap at Irving between AOPS 6 and the commencement of the CSC build program, we have announced these two AOPS—AOPS 7 and 8—which will go to the Coast Guard. The benefit of that, of course, is that AOPS 7 and 8 are going to cost a lot less than AOPS 1 and 2. There are economies of scale and efficiencies from having 7 and 8, and we don't have to wait for an MPV in order to get the Coast Guard a new ship quicker. That's what's being done specifically at Irving.
At Seaspan, there's been a creative ability.... The caveat here perhaps, Mr. Chair, is that because we treat the national shipbuilding strategy as a program of work instead of a series of projects, we're able to move, if you will, the pieces around the chessboard quite nimbly and quite agilely. It's not a sequential series of projects. We have a program of work that needs to be done, and we can look at the chessboard and decide who's best positioned to do it when and for the least amount of cost. For example, we did early blocking of some of the JSS work, which allows us to get ahead of the game on the JSS and which was during a period in which Seaspan needed the work.
It's quite an interesting chessboard to manage.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Minister, everyone else, thanks for being with us today. Welcome back.
Minister, who is Charles Courquin?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
I'm going to get his title wrong, so perhaps Les will correct me, but Charles Courquin is an IBM employee who has been advising us on Phoenix.
Les, can you give more details, because there's an important—?
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Human Resources-to-Pay Stabilization, Department of Public Works and Government Services
He has visited Canada about five times, Mr. Chair. He provides advice to the minister and to me and my project team on our integrated work plan and the various projects and work that we've launched to support stabilization.
5:20 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Human Resources-to-Pay Stabilization, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
What kind of advice has he given specifically?
The reason I ask is that since you were appointed, IBM has lobbied you directly 13 times. Since you were appointed, IBM has received over a quarter of a billion dollars of sole-source contracts for the Phoenix program, which they had a hand in perhaps messing up.
5:20 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Human Resources-to-Pay Stabilization, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I would say that the work he has performed has largely been to stress test the integrated plan that we've posted on our website and are advancing through the governance process. He has been to Miramichi twice, to observe the operations there and to provide suggestions around opportunities to improve or to streamline some processes. Basically, he has been acting as a sounding board and reacting to—
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Does he report generally directly to you, Mr. Linklater?
5:20 p.m.
Associate Deputy Minister, Human Resources-to-Pay Stabilization, Department of Public Works and Government Services
In general he does, but to the minister as well.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
I meet with him. I've met with him four times probably, and have been advised of the other meetings.
The other decisions I would say that relate to this are twofold.
Back in January of last year, when I decided that we needed regular meetings with IBM senior leadership in order to hold them to better account for the things that were and were not being done, that resulted in a series of meetings to—
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Can I just interrupt you there? If we need to hold them to account for things that aren't being done, why are we giving them a quarter of a billion dollars in sole-source contracts?
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
Because as I've said before at this committee, IBM is, out of necessity, a part of the solution to this situation. The challenge for us, and the requirement on us, has been to hold them to greater account for the things they said they were going to do and that we need them to do in the future.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
For the people watching, do you not find it kind of awkward, or perhaps irregular, that a company that's directly lobbied you so often.... You mentioned that we need to hold them accountable, but we're giving them a quarter of a billion dollars, just in the two years you've been there, of untendered contracts.
At the same time, we're holding them accountable. I would like to be held accountable like that—to be receiving such gifts.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
I see what you're saying and I disagree with how you're framing it.
I consider the meetings that I've had with IBM over the past two years to be necessarily related to us holding them to greater account for their contractual obligations, to working with them in finding a solution on Phoenix. We could not move forward on stabilization without IBM at the table as a full partner on the solution. Any contractual relationships that have been entered into have been, again, directly as a result of a need to stabilize this.
June 5th, 2019 / 5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I want to move on.
The PMO, we know through an ATIP request, ordered a review of the integrity regime. There were about 60 organizations consulted for the integrity regime process update.
Only three private companies.... Two of them volunteered. We contacted them and they volunteered to do it. Only one, which was SNC, was invited to participate in the integrity regime consultations. Of course, SNC-Lavalin is the only company that has received an administrative leave from the integrity regime.
I'm just curious as to why SNC was brought into the consultations, as really the only private company that was invited to join in on consultations.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC
To be honest, that's not my understanding of the facts.
I'll ask Bill to verify, but I think there were over 300 submissions.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
From your own report that you published, it listed the companies consulted.
We went through it, and we got from your department the companies listed. There were about 63 that consulted on the integrity regime. Most of them were associations; there were only three private companies.
We spoke to Bell and BMO, and they said, “Oh, yes. We volunteered to do this. We saw this. Only SNC was invited.”
SNC is the only company that has received an administrative review, granted by this government, from the integrity regime. Does it not all seem a bit odd?
