Evidence of meeting #178 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Paul Glover  President, Shared Services Canada
Les Linklater  Associate Deputy Minister, Human Resources-to-Pay Stabilization, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Glenn Purves  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Peter Wallace  Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

5:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Bill Matthews

—equally on the details of the policy, are more appropriately directed to ISED as well.

We'll do what we can.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay.

I want to go back to the integrity regime.

The last time you spoke with us at committee, you promised that the regime would have been out a couple of months ago. CTV has now announced that it's going to be delayed. I have to ask, why is it going to be delayed?

CTV has commented that the delay is going to benefit one company currently under the administrative review, which is SNC.

Why the delay?

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

As you can appreciate, when I was here the last time, our intention was—based on the feedback from our consultation in the fall of 2018, and having been in the process at that point of reviewing that information—to have our change policy out within weeks. Given the considerable public discussion and, I would say, the ton of subsequent feedback, we've decided that it's prudent to look at what else has come in and to postpone a decision on what we'll do with the integrity regime.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

When will the report be out?

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Carla Qualtrough Liberal Delta, BC

We haven't committed—I apologize—to the exact date.

Significant additional feedback has come in and we're looking at that seriously.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

From who?

I have to ask, what other companies, besides SNC, are currently subject to corruption charges and would benefit from the delay or from the IR?

5:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Bill Matthews

Mr. Chair, I have maybe just one thing.

When the government does contemplate changes to such a policy, the norm would be to go back and consult publicly if there are significant changes. That's depending on—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Have you gone back to consult with SNC as well, seeing that you invited them to consult the first time around?

5:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Bill Matthews

You have mischaracterized the meetings with SNC-Lavalin.

They were with respect to the actual administrative agreement that is in place with them, as opposed to the policy specifically. We will confirm that in writing after this meeting.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

That you're consulting with them as well, on this second round?

5:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Bill Matthews

When the government consults on a policy, it's done in a public fashion. Anyone is free to—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Have you consulted with SNC again on the second round?

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I think Mr. Matthews has heard the question.

The question is valid, and we do require an answer, but unfortunately, because of time constraints, I would ask you to provide that through the clerk in writing, and for any other information that you feel would be relevant to the line of questioning, if you could provide that to the clerk as well, I would appreciate it greatly.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Once again, thank you for your appearance. I know that you had to adapt and alter your schedule somewhat to be here. We do appreciate your appearance.

Colleagues, we are suspending for a few moments. We will resume, hopefully, in about five minutes with Minister Murray.

5:39 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, could I get you to take your seats? Thank you.

The minister has informed me that she will be available until 6:30. It's a hard deadline at 6:30. I understand she has to get out of here no later than that, so we'll try to abide by it.

I also understand, Minister, that you have an opening statement of approximately 10 minutes in length. Is that correct?

5:39 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Joyce Murray LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

Yes, or a little less.

5:39 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Let's assume it's 10 minutes. That would allow us about 40 minutes' worth of questions.

Could we go back to the routine that we established with the first round of witnesses? We will have five-minute questions. If we do it in five minutes, we should be able to get two full rounds. All right?

5:39 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5:39 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you.

Once again, Minister, welcome back to our committee. The first time you were here, unfortunately, we were interrupted by procedural votes, so it's good to see you back before this committee. Would you care to introduce the officials with you and then deliver your opening statement, please?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the committee for inviting me to appear a second time to discuss the 2019-20 main estimates.

This is my first appearance before the committee as President of the Treasury Board and Minister of Digital Government. It's a great honour to be here in that capacity. I have enjoyed my time here as the parliamentary secretary over the years.

I am pleased to have with me some officials from my department: Peter Wallace, Secretary of the Treasury Board Secretariat; Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer; and, Glenn Purves, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector. I'd also like to highlight the presence here of Greg Fergus, the Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board and Minister of Digital Government.

After my remarks, my officials and I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Mr. Chair, on April 11, I tabled the 2019-20 main estimates, which provide information on $300 billion in spending to deliver programs and services this fiscal year. This includes new measures announced in the federal budget.

These main estimates are made up of $126 billion in planned voted expenditures and $174 billion in statutory expenditures. They detail the government's plan to support the middle class, as presented in budget 2019, including historic investments in housing, skills training and our most vulnerable seniors.

This is the second year in a row that the main estimates include measures announced in the budget. We have been able to do this in part by tabling the main estimates in mid-April, after the budget. As you all know, this new sequencing is part of a two-year pilot initiative that was put forward by this committee to make it easier for Canadians and parliamentarians to track government spending.

We launched the pilot with the tabling of last year's main estimates, by including a single central vote to implement all spending measures and departmental allocations announced in the 2018 budget, vote 40. This approach allows for enhanced transparency and full alignment between the main estimates and budget. However, parliamentarians, including the committee members, expressed their desire for more rigorous oversight by having the appropriate parliamentary committees scrutinize new spending associated with budget measures.

You also asked for better alignment between the main estimates and the departmental plans. As you know, Mr. Chair, our government greatly respects the work of parliamentary committees, and with this year's main estimates, we've responded to these concerns and other feedback from the Parliamentary Budget Officer. We've also implemented some changes to this year's main estimates following this committee's excellent report on the estimates reform process.

What we have provided parliamentarians, and what you are considering today, is the result of our ongoing work to better align the budget, the main estimates and the departmental plans. This year's main estimates include all of the $6 billion in new voted measures announced in budget 2019. They are presented in 194 separate measure-specific votes listed under individual departments. These votes have been referred to the appropriate parliamentary committees, that is, the committees that normally review a department's work, and because they are presented as individual votes, this new mechanism provides more detail and granularity for tracking and oversight than ever before.

In his April 29 report to Parliament on the main estimates, the PBO described these new measures as “important improvement to the process”. In addition, committee reviews of these measure-specific votes has been supported by supplementary information provided to Parliament at the end of April. This is information that could not be included in the departmental plans for timing reasons, which were well advanced when the budget was announced, and they were also tabled on the same day as the main estimates.

In addition, the government will continue to provide detailed online reporting of funding allocated to these individual votes, as well as progress reports in the 2019-20 supplementary estimates. I am pleased to announce that the first such report is already available online.

In summary, the use of the 194 measure-specific votes provides clear linkages between Table A2.11 in the budget plan and the main estimates and the departmental plans, taking into account the supplementary information provided at the end of April.

Mr. Chair, this is about the ongoing and continuous improvement of the estimates process. We've come a long way from two years ago when there was no alignment between the budget and main estimates. I'd like to remind the committee that we are working to improve a system that we inherited, which The Globe and Mail said, prior to our reforms, was “bad to the point of absurdity”.

As the PBO noted in his report:

In summary, it is clear the Government has taken steps to improve the Estimates process from the previous year; however, there are still changes which could be made to further improve parliamentarians’ oversight role in scrutinizing government spending.

We have always maintained that Canadians and the parliamentarians who represent them have the right to know how public funds are being spent and to hold the government to account for its spending. These ongoing reforms will help them exercise that right.

By creating these linkages, the government is making it easier than ever for parliamentarians and Canadians to know where the money is going.

I'd like to turn now to that portion of the main estimates that applies to my department. As the employer and expenditure manager for the government, the Treasury Board Secretariat is seeking Parliament's authority for $7 billion in planned spending.

The main funding requests of the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat are as follows.

First, we are requesting $259 million under vote 1 for program expenditures.

Second, we are requesting $36 million, under votes 45, 50 and 55, to implement three measures announced in the budget. They relate to advancing gender equality, ensuring proper payments for public servants and implementing Federal Public Service Dental Plan amendments.

The remaining votes relate to the role of Treasury Board ministers as the employer and financial manager for the government.

There is $750 million dollars in Treasury Board vote 5 for government contingencies for urgent or unforeseen expenditures that cannot be covered by other departmental votes.

There is $327 million in Treasury Board vote 10 for government-wide initiatives. This is to support horizontal initiatives like the early learning and child care initiative, a liquefied natural gas investment in Kitimat, the implementation of the new accessible Canada act, and the implementation and administration of the proactive pay equity legislation.

There is $2.7 billion in Treasury Board vote 20 for public service insurance.

There is $2.2 billion in Treasury Board votes 25 and 35 for operating and capital budget carry-fowards, and $600 million in Treasury Board vote 30 for payless requirements such as maternity and parental allowances, and severance pay.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, in our system of government, the ability of parliamentarians to hold the government to account is of the utmost importance. We've made important improvements to the main estimates over the past two years to do just that. The effect is to highlight new government spending so that parliamentarians and Canadians can scrutinize the expenditure of tax dollars in greater detail.

Thank you again to the committee and the chair for the invitation to appear today. I'll be pleased to take questions from the committee.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We'll go to questions. Before I do that, I just have to note that Mr. Peterson's name is not on the speakers list, which is probably just as well, since he made some comments in the last session, and had he attempted to speak now, he would have found out that he was invisible to the chair.

We will now start with 5 minute rounds—

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Madame Ratansi, please, for five minutes.

June 5th, 2019 / 5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

He didn't pick on Mr. Nicholson, though.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC

But we both are picking on poor Mr. Nicholson.