Evidence of meeting #180 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was departments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Les Linklater  Associate Deputy Minister, Human Resources-to-Pay Stabilization, Department of Public Works and Government Services
André Fillion  Assistant Deputy Minister, Defence and Marine Procurement, Acquisitions Program, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Michael Vandergrift  Associate Deputy Minister, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Glenn Purves  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Baxter Williams  Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat
Jacquie Manchevsky  Corporate Secretary, Next Generation HR and Pay Team, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Karen Cahill

What we're—

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

—so what are you doing to move forward?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Karen Cahill

Through the centre of excellence on costing we're trying to educate other government departments on how to best assess their financial risk and—especially when they're presenting TB submissions to our department, or through the Treasury Board Secretariat—how to best cost their financial risk as well.

Costing is not something people are really used to doing. We're trying to also give them the right guidelines to ensure that they perform costing as accurately as possible, understanding that when you're costing an initiative there are many things that would be out of your control that you will not necessarily take into account.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Yes.

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Maybe I could just add to that.

When guidance is provided to departments in creating their departmental plans and so forth, on the financial risk side there are certain risks, from a standard deviation standpoint, that are tail risks. It's important to be able—as you're providing a story in terms of the programs and the costs attributed to these programs—to speak to some of the outliers that exist and how the department is mitigating the risks with respect to those outliers.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

There are sometimes risks beyond their control.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

So, if there are geopolitical risks or other risks, then how do you guide them, or what do you do? Do you have, yourself, a mitigating strategy when departments provide their financial risk, to say maybe we'll put a buffer or something?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Give a very brief answer if that's possible.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Karen Cahill

We're not putting the buffer ourselves. What we can do is challenge the departments to ensure that they have looked at all the mitigating factors and that they themselves have put the buffers on the costing that they have provided.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

Mr. McCauley, you have five minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks.

Ms. Santiago and Mr. Purves, a couple of estimates meetings ago, we asked about the $90 million under vote 10 for LNG and you didn't have an answer for us at the time. Are you able to update us now on what that money is for?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I'm happy to provide information on what I know with respect to that LNG item.

As you know, it's still in the main estimates and it's still contained under vote 10.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Yes.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I'll just read it.

The $40 billion LNG Canada project represents the single largest private investment project in Canadian history—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I know all the talking points. What's the $90 million for?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Right now, because it's still in vote 10, a lot of the program design and a lot of the due diligence in precisely where that $90 million will be allocated are still being worked out.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Why vote 10? Vote 10 traditionally has rarely been used, and now we've seen hundreds of millions poured into these votes. Why the $90 million?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Vote 10 is—

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

On behalf of taxpayers, I'm trying to figure out what the $90 million is for, but it's almost a year now and we can't get an answer. Why has it been squirrelled away in a vote 10?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Vote 10 is a circumstance where there is a significant strategic project or initiative that covers many departments, so it's a horizontal initiative.

Until such time as the submission goes through Treasury Board and the allocation is made to various departments, it's captured under vote 10. So in this instance, I believe the item was announced as part of the fall economic update, and we had it as an item in the supplementary (B)s that were approved.

I think that's the meeting you were talking about before.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Right. It went through the supplementary (B)s without an answer. We still don't have an answer on the main estimates. Again it's a lot of taxpayer's money. It would be nice to know what it's for. There has to be some plan. I can't imagine the government just threw $90 million in there and walked away.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I have additional details on the venture and so forth. I'm happy to provide them, but until such time as it's allocated through Treasury Board, it's very hard for me to be able to say precisely where the funds go in which department, because it does cover a few departments.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I want to pull up a question I had from last week. The government has made an offer to the public sector for compensation for Phoenix of five days—two days' leave, one day's leave, one day's leave, and one day's leave in 2019-20. The government wouldn't make an offer like that without knowing how much that would cost the Treasury. What's the cost of that offer, regardless of whether it's accepted or not?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

There are many different cost aspects to that. There's a liability component and then there's the direct cost component.

In terms of the liability, I think five days were offered. Of those days, it becomes a contingent liability on the books of Canada for three years. After that, those liabilities are unwound over a period of about 14 years.