Evidence of meeting #35 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mail.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Gosine  Mayor, Town of Wabana
Craig Dyer  President, Local 126, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Kimberly Yetman Dawson  Executive Director, Empower, The Disability Resource Centre
Emily Christy  Executive Director, Newfoundland and Labrador, Coalition of Persons with Disabilities
Sharron Callahan  Chair, St. John's-Avalon Chapter, Canadian Association of Retired Persons

October 3rd, 2016 / 7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. This is our 35th meeting for the year, but I think it's our sixth or seventh meeting on this consultation tour.

Gentleman on the panel, you would know that the minister responsible for Canada Post, the Honourable Judy Foote, has engaged in a very extensive consultation process concerning the future of Canada Post.

Phase one was the establishment of a task force, the mandate of which was to examine and make suggestions as to how Canada Post could remain financially viable in the years to come.

Phase two of that consultation process is what we are doing here tonight, and that is engagement with Canadians, whether individuals, organizations, municipalities, or anyone with something to say about Canada Post and how they would like to see Canada Post continue to operate now and in the future. We're here today on a coast-to-coast-to coast consultation tour speaking with all of you and getting your views on how you see the future of Canada Post and how that will unfold.

The process this evening is very simple. We are asking all panellists to deliver an opening address of five minutes or less, which will be followed by a series of questions and answers from all of our committee members. As I said to Mr. Dyer, just a few moments ago many times panellists do not get through their entire five minutes before I interject, but we have found that during the question-and-answer process, almost all of the information that you may have wanted to present in your opening statements will come out, and that's truly when we get some meaningful dialogue. I would ask you to try to keep your opening statements as short as possible, recognizing and respecting the five-minute time limit that we have, and we'll get into questions immediately after that.

Our first speaker is Mayor Gosine.

Go ahead, Your Worship, for five minutes, please, with an opening statement.

7 p.m.

Gary Gosine Mayor, Town of Wabana

Canada needs postal banking in rural communities.

Thousands of rural towns and villages in our country do not have a bank. The community of Bell Island is one of those rural areas, but we do have a post office that could provide financial services. As well, nearly two million Canadians desperately need an alternative to payday lenders, and a postal bank could be that alternative.

A point to consider is the failure of the existing banking system to answer the needs of individuals in rural regions. Postal banking could be a low-cost alternative to traditional banks. CUPW national president Mike Palecek stated that profits earned through postal banking could help the post office thrive as a public service and provide returns to the communities.

Postal banking is supported by the postal workers union, anti-poverty and community groups, and over 600 municipalities in the country. I was a representative in March in Ottawa. It's already instituted in many parts of the world and it existed in Canada until 1967. In small-town rural Canada, 3,326 communities have a post office, but there is no bank or credit union branch. According to my research, I think it may have been in 1969 rather than 1967.

According to my research, minorities, low-income residents, younger households, and the unemployed are particularly impacted by a lack of traditional banking. Reports indicate that nearly half of our households in this country are financially underserved. In my research on this important issue, I learned that Japan Post Bank is the largest deposit holder in the world, and the postal service of China serves over 400 million customers. Something must be working.

If we don't provide banking service to rural Canada, which experts say can be done through postal banking, then we're not providing the fair financial opportunities that exist elsewhere for rural and small-town businesses and homeowners.

I do know it exists in Brazil and Italy

I know that the banking institutions are saying that there are lots of banks, and I've read that there are close to 2,500 banks in the country, but just to give you an indication, I have a clear example here today. I come from a community that has no bank. We have a little ATM machine; you can take money out, but you can't put money in. The ferry broke down at 10 o'clock and the next ferry landed me right here at this hotel at ten to seven. We have no bank, and if a post office were open all day today, it could service the people. When I was in Ottawa, they asked me if we have any type of banking, and I said, “Yes, two—shoe boxes and mattresses”, because that's what a lot of seniors are using when they can't go to the bank.

I guess that's my story, and I'm trying to promote our town as well as any other rural town in this country.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Your Worship.

You have five minutes, please, Mr. Dyer.

7:05 p.m.

Craig Dyer President, Local 126, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Good evening, panel, and thank you very much for this opportunity to speak.

The last time public consultations were held in St. John's, Newfoundland, was in 2011, and we missed it. I received a phone call from a counterpart at the students' union who said that Canada Post management showed up in St. John's, invited a few friends, had a meeting, and then flew out.

My name is Craig Dyer. I am the president of the St. John's local. I represent 350-plus clerks, letter carriers, technicians, and rural and mail service couriers in the Avalon Peninsula area of Newfoundland.

These workers are parents, grandparents, community volunteers, Girl Guide leaders, C.L.B. leaders, volunteer firefighters, and coaches. In their hours off, they work with both the youth and the elderly. They are your neighbours, your relations, and your friends. They are hard-working, honest people who should be treated with respect in the workplace, but they aren't.

I've worked 27 years as a letter carrier in St. John's, and the sky started falling the second day. They are mismanaged, and we see it every day. Every day we watch the corporation waste money without any accountability, just because they can.

I would like to speak today about forced overtime, jobs, and service.

In the past five years in St. John's, we've had two major restructures reorganizing the letter carrier routes. One occurred in 2011 when the corporation invested $2 billion in the postal transformation. This started in 2007, and at the time we were in a global crisis. The federal government was pumping money into the economy and creating jobs, while Canada Post spent $1.8 billion—which is what your document says, but we believe it to be a little bit more, almost $2 billion—to eliminate jobs.

As a result, a grievance was filed, the corporation failed, and we lost 28% of our jobs then. We recouped a small percentage.

In 2015, just after the federal election, the corporation implemented community mailboxes and took service away from the door-to-door delivery of almost 28,000 residents in St. John's, Mount Pearl, and Kilbride. As a result, the corporation came back and did another reorganization, because they recognized there was an error, and we did create a few more jobs, but at that time we lost approximately 40% of our workforce.

These losses were not due to volumes but to changes in the way that Canada Post processes the mail. Since these changes, forced overtime has become a major issue in the St. John's depot. Staff is down significantly, and overtime is through the roof. We have letter carriers who now make $30,000 to $50,000 a year in overtime while people sit at home without a job.

The majority of the letter carriers only want to work their eight-hour day. I've been a carrier for 27 years, and I enjoy my job, and I enjoy working eight hours a day, but I also have a life. We have families and we have community commitments, but that isn't happening, and now the workers are feeling it. They are being harassed, mismanaged, intimidated, and bullied on a daily basis. You have to get your route done.

The employer, locally, doesn't trust our valued employees. They believe that the workers are the problem, and not the routes.

My counterparts and I have arbitrated several arbitration cases that were proven wrong, and we did receive more jobs back.

For years now workers have been forced to work overtime at time-and-a-half and two times their regular rate of pay with the hope of getting their routes done, while this work could be done more cheaply and more people could be employed. Daily there are arguments in the letter carrier depot about staffing and overtime. If you don't finish your route, you are reprimanded; if you do work overtime, you are reprimanded.

I'll just quickly go through some examples that are actual events that happened.

We have a volunteer fireman in our depot. He received a five-day suspension for refusing to work overtime, in the dark, and in unsafe conditions. He lost five days' pay. He had to go home to his partner and tell her why. Three years later we arbitrated, and of course the arbitrator ruled in our favour.

Another gentleman—and I can give names if you wish—received a five-day pay loss for not being able to justify his overtime. We sat in a meeting, and the person worked above pace expectations and should have worked more that day, but he received a five-day suspension. The supervisor who suspended him said, “Don't worry; you'll get it back in arbitration.”

I have a lot more, but I'd like to finish.

I talked to Mr. Whalen about this in his office. We have two women who recently returned from maternity leave. The employer has told one of them that they have to work overtime and find child care to take care of their child while they work overtime. One of those women has now moved to another job, and recently, within the last month, the other woman received a suspension because she has chosen her child over working overtime.

Canada Post can go in a favourable direction and we can create jobs in our community, just on the quantum of overtime and monies paid out.

Thank you very much.

7:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Mr. Dyer.

We'll go into the seven-minute round of questions now and start, of course, with St. John's own, Mr. Whalen.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Gary and Craig, for coming out today and providing your thoughts and feelings on Canada Post and what its future can and should look like.

Our introduction to this, Craig, was really during the campaign last year. We had some difficult conversations about the fact that although the Liberal campaign policy platform called for us to save door-to-door delivery, the limited way we promised to do that was by putting in a moratorium on future community mailboxes, then holding these consultations to figure out a proper way forward for Canada Post in some fashion.

The task force had a limited mandate and they talked about self-sustainability of Canada Post, but we don't feel bound by that. We want these consultations to be open, we want to hear from all parties about the future, and we are prepared to entertain everything.

Mr. Dyer, could you provide some information about the input and implementation of those community mailboxes right after the election here in St. John's East, and how that made the community feel, and whether or not the community was consulted?

7:10 p.m.

President, Local 126, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Craig Dyer

As I said in my statement, Mr. Whalen, the community wasn't consulted. I've worked closely with the mayors of both St. John's and Mount Pearl, and the consultation process prior to the implementation was that this is what we are going to do and here is where we're going to put it.

If you drive around St. John's, Mount Pearl, and Kilbride, you'll see the unsafe locations. You'll see them in no parking zones, you'll see them in fire lanes, you'll see them adjacent to fire hydrants, and you'll see them adjacent to handicap parking spots. That dialogue did go ahead with Canada Post and the union and the municipalities, to no avail.

I presented Mr. Whalen with a bunch of pictures of unsafe locations, but the community itself was disappointed. I remember that I was on Royal Oak Drive when the announcement of the moratorium came out and I received many phone calls that night from my peers and from people who were genuinely concerned: “Why not St. John's?”

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Fair enough. We actually had a consultation here over the summer, so this isn't your first consultation on this topic since 2011.

7:15 p.m.

President, Local 126, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

We did hold one, and my report from that will feed into the committee once it's completed.

How do the community mailboxes in the new areas compare to the locations of the community mailboxes in areas that had them as part of the municipal planning that went into the creation of those areas, in terms of safety and access?

7:15 p.m.

President, Local 126, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Craig Dyer

My understanding is that in 1980, with growth in the area of St. John's, Mount Pearl, and Kilbride, new subdivisions were plotted to have community mailboxes. There was consultation, but when you take the physical location of streets in St. John's or Mount Pearl, it's not very safe. There was very little consultation.

In the thought process in the eighties there was a thing called an “iron ring”, a circle wrapped around your community, and anything outside that circle received delivery by community mailboxes, which is approximately 12,000 out of 50,000 in the St. John's area we serve.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Did you find that those were safer, or did the ones that were implemented outside that ring also have the same safety and access concerns as the ones inside?

7:15 p.m.

President, Local 126, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Craig Dyer

I would say that totally, without a doubt, the ones that were put in were rushed in. They were actually being put in the day the delivery was supposed to start, with very little consultation or attention to safety concerns.

I do know that the corporation had a manual and gave them specific instructions to not put it here or not put it there.

On my own route, I have to travel up laneways in icy conditions, so if I have a proper pair of shoes on and I travel up a laneway, that's okay for Craig Dyer, but for the residents—Mr. Gosine, or anybody else who is receiving mail there—it is a safety hazard.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Mr. Gosine, even though you're in the riding of St. John's East, because of where Bell Island and Wabana are, it is rural, because you're cut off, and maybe other people on the committee wouldn't realize it. Is the mail service on Bell Island a mix of door-to-door delivery, or is it mostly people going to the post office, or how do the people on Bell Island get their mail?

7:15 p.m.

Mayor, Town of Wabana

Gary Gosine

We used to have three post offices at one time. Within in the last five years, two of those small ones have shut down. We have one main one that we fought to have some extended hours for, because on the second-to-last one Canada Post gave us an alternative of 13 hours or not have it all. We chose not to have the 13 hours and we extended our Saturdays that they shut out to have it from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. on a Saturday.

There are some community mailboxes for Lance Cove. That's about the extent of our delivery. There's one post office now on Bell Island.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

In an ideal world, if Canada Post were to provide additional services on Bell Island, in addition to the postal banking, what other federal government services do your residents want to access but can't access, be it Internet service, be it access to Service Canada, and whatnot?

7:15 p.m.

Mayor, Town of Wabana

Gary Gosine

We think another post office would definitely help. In the last federal election all we did was...I won't say fight, but give them the proposal as to why we should have two. We've got one now for a community of a little fewer than 3,000 people.

We just got $17.3 million worth of cable—because I live on an island—come across to feed our town for electricity and we just got two new pieces of equipment that the telephone company has powered on Kenmount Road.

We'll never get—we just talked about this an hour ago—fibre optics in our town, probably one of the only rural towns in this province.

What I just went through today myself was there was no ferry. The last ferry that left Bell Island this morning was at 11 o'clock. It tied it up in Portugal Cove. They started working on the ferry. The ramp was broken. From 20—

7:20 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Sorry, Mr. Gosine, we're not going to solve the ferry problems on this committee, but we're asking in terms of services at Canada Post itself.

7:20 p.m.

Mayor, Town of Wabana

Gary Gosine

I'm just trying to illustrate that not having a ferry is another reason we need extended postal services, because if that boat had broken down an hour earlier, we wouldn't even have had post services for about four days, since Friday to today. That ferry situation is very important to the postal community on Bell Island.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. McCauley for seven minutes, please.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Thanks for joining us tonight.

Mayor, a special thank you for making that trip. How are you going to get home tonight?

7:20 p.m.

Mayor, Town of Wabana

Gary Gosine

I got to get a run home because that's another story.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Is the ferry going to get you home?

7:20 p.m.

Mayor, Town of Wabana

Gary Gosine

The ferry will get me home, but after three years and two weeks I was fortunate enough to get my licence back. I've got an R on my licence. I'm not allowed to drive in the nighttime. I'll get a taxi or thumb a ride over what we call Cove Road. I'll definitely get home somehow.

7:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

You live in a beautiful area. I used to live a few blocks away from here. Friends with CHC toured me over your whole area in their helicopter. It's a beautiful area. Thanks for being here.

Mr. Dyer, you've chatted a bunch about consultation, no consultation, some consultation. I'm using your own words: there was none, there was some, there was very little. I understand that in 2013 Canada Post came to town to do consultations. Was it just CUPW that wasn't involved?