Evidence of meeting #38 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was business.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Penny Walsh McGuire  Executive Director, Greater Charlottetown Area Chamber of Commerce
Katharine MacDonald  Owner, Milk & Amber
John Barrett  Director of Sales, Marketing and Development, Vesey's Seeds Ltd.
Scott Gaudet  Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Marcia Carroll  Executive Director, The PEI Council of People with Disabilities

11:25 a.m.

Director of Sales, Marketing and Development, Vesey's Seeds Ltd.

John Barrett

I'm trying to run our company, not Canada Post.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Scott Duvall NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

I agree with that, but you're making comments, you're projecting their losses, and you're concerned about that, yet those losses have never shown up.

11:25 a.m.

Director of Sales, Marketing and Development, Vesey's Seeds Ltd.

John Barrett

I'm concerned about the losses, because all I have to go on is that I'm approached by people like the president and those at the vice-president level of Canada Post, explaining to us that they are facing x number of losses, and this is why. They ask what contributions we have to help them in their decision-making process of what they're going to implement to avoid the loss.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Scott Duvall NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Gaudet, you mentioned earlier the difference of pay for some people. Can you just further elaborate on that? Why is that happening? Is it the same union, or is it different companies?

11:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Scott Gaudet

They're franchise workers. Workers who work in a postal franchise, such as a Shoppers Drug Mart or Lawtons, are not unionized. When Canada Post sets up a franchise, it's up to that franchise owner, be it Lawtons or Shoppers Drug Mart, to staff that position. Canada Post comes in, gives them their training, sets the computer up, and then they agree on what they're going to pay those individuals. It's up to the franchise owners to pay those individuals. In a corporate retail outlet, we're bound by collective agreement, so this is what we get paid. These people are getting paid far less for doing the same work.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Scott Duvall NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Mr. Gaudet, Canada Post, as you know, has made an announcement that it wants to discontinue door-to-door service and go to community mailboxes, but there are some challenges that people would have mobility issues; and Canada Post has made some type of an application form so that people could get that service maybe once a week, instead of having to go to a community mailbox. But apparently they have to prove that they're disabled, and there's a cost to this.

Do you think it's fair for Canada Post to change the rules in the middle of the game, where people were getting service, and then expect them to prove, at a cost to them, why it should maintain that one-day-a-week service?

11:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Scott Gaudet

I deliver to quite a few disabled people in my community, and I think it's against their privacy rights for them to have to stand up and prove what disability they have. There are individuals who I deliver to who live in a community called Independence Place. They go there so that they can have their independence. For Canada Post to demand that they prove they have a disability for us to deliver to their door when the sky is not falling....

Like you said, the post office has made tremendous profits over the last 19 out of 22 years. For somebody to have to prove they have a disability, it's very similar to the veteran who has to prove every year that he doesn't have two legs. Why should someone who is trying to be independent...? Most people with disabilities who I speak to don't want to be a burden and they don't want people to take notice. They just want to live their lives and receive the services they currently get. Going door to door is essential for these individuals.

I have individuals who are bound to a wheelchair and look forward to me coming to the door every day. It's a simple “Hello, how are you?” but I'm pretty sure I'm probably the only person who says hello to them during the day and throughout the rest of the week. Mondays are usually exciting for some people. I have one lady who waits outside for me if it's a nice day. She gives me cookies every now and again, which is cool, too.

People shouldn't have to prove that they have a disability when the service is already there. The company is profitable, has been profitable. It's not broken. We don't need to fix it. Obviously Deepak is going around to companies such as Mr. Barrett's at Vesey's Seeds. We are extremely proud to deliver his products every day. They are such beautiful, colourful magazines and his little parcels are great things to see.

We shouldn't be knocking on people's doors and saying “Really, do you have a disability? Do you really need this service?”

The service was put there so that we're the eyes on the ground. I'm a member of my community, and I'm the eyes of that community. I see when there's a dog loose. I see when there's a child outside unsupervised ready to run across the street. Like I mentioned in my presentation, there are two blind ladies on my route. One was outside one day. It was storming, and she went to put her garbage out. She got disoriented and fell to the ground and started to panic. If I hadn't been there at that exact time, what would have happened to that lady?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

We're out of time.

11:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Scott Gaudet

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

You may wish, unless you're fluently bilingual, to put on your translation devices.

Mr. Ayoub, you have the floor and you have seven minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for welcoming us to your beautiful island.

Mr. Barrett, I looked at your website and it is quite user-friendly. It is impressive. I was not familiar with your company but, no pun intended, it seems to be a successful and flourishing business. You use Canada Post services. That shows that Canada Post services can be used to reach out around the world.

You are successful. Without disclosing any secrets, can you tell me about the working conditions in your company as compared to those of your competitors? How do you view your employees as compared to what your competitors do to remain competitive and to stay in the business line that you know well? How do you compare to your competitors?

11:30 a.m.

Director of Sales, Marketing and Development, Vesey's Seeds Ltd.

John Barrett

I guess there were two questions there. One was how we stand out from our competitors. There was something that I didn't 100% grasp, something to do with how we would treat our employees in comparison to how our competitors might treat theirs.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

To stay competitive, I mean.

11:30 a.m.

Director of Sales, Marketing and Development, Vesey's Seeds Ltd.

John Barrett

To stay competitive?

Being located in York, Prince Edward Island is probably one of the top reasons why we're competitive. Our operating costs, our taxes, our labour rates, and everything else would be considerably higher if we were in Pacific Circle in Mississauga or somewhere in Vancouver. That's why you see some companies locating to Prince Edward Island.

We're in a unique position. While we have a number of companies that compete against us in Canada, we're the only company that offers the full range of gardening things. While we don't have a direct competitor, we have two or three bulb competitors, two or three seed competitors, and two or three tool competitors.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

You treat your employees in a certain way and rely on concentration to keep costs under control. You keep them as competitive as possible in order to make a profit. To keep going, your business has to make a profit. My point is that you maintain your base activities, deliveries, bulbs, and so forth.

I will now turn to Mr. Gaudet.

You talked about the pharmacies Jean Coutu and Shoppers Drug Mart, which are Canada Post subcontractors. You even said that the hourly wage is $16 or $17 as compared to $26. As members of the public, we go to the drug store, do our postal business, and do not know the difference, but the cost is lower. What does that tell us? Does that wage keep people under the poverty line? Are they temporary and precarious jobs that do not provide for a decent living and is it only Canada Post employees who are paid what they should be?

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Scott Gaudet

I don't think the average person knows the pay difference when they go into a franchise, as they would if they went into a corporate retail outlet. I think they're more worried about the service they're receiving. The training level at a franchise is not equivalent to the training you would receive in a corporate retail outlet.

I've mentioned to a couple of people who work in franchises that I have done exactly the same work as they have and been paid $8 or $9 more. They were quite shocked that we were paid more than they were.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I don't want to put you on the spot, but I will continue with my question.

There is also talk about postal banking services. Bank cashiers are paid wages that are competitive with what other banks pay. Their salaries are not subsidized. From one bank to another, the working conditions are essentially the same.

The unions talk a lot about preserving employees' rights, and that is to be expected. I can understand that. Yet they are also talking about moving toward postal banking services. Are we to understand that the same conditions will apply, which are better than what the banks offer, and that subsidies will still be required?

Banking services are not part of Canada Post's core business; banks provide that service. Ultimately, if postal banking services were offered, subsidies would still be required. Does that mean we are still stuck in the spiral of subsidies and cost differences? Despite what certain studies say, the breakeven point will never be reached. Whether you believe in a study or not, there might be other studies that show the opposite.

Do you see the paradox here?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I would remind members that when you're given a time allocation, it's for both for questions and the answers.

Mr. Gaudet, I'll give you time for a brief response, if you could, please.

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Scott Gaudet

I'm not an accountant and not a businessman.

I think that paying workers a living wage is of the utmost importance to sustaining a business. When we're talking about postal banking, the revenues that other countries have shown have proven it would work. We could be paying those living wages for service to the public. I think the workers deserve to be paid a fair wage for the work that's done.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I have to interrupt you there. I'm sorry, Mr. Gaudet.

11:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Local 129, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

We'll go to our last two intervenors, both of whom will have five minutes.

Mr. Kmiec, for five minutes, please.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Mr. Gaudet, and thank you, Mr. Barrett, for coming and speaking to us today. This is my second time on P.E.I. and it's nice to be back. I used to work with an islander and she used to say great things about all the places I should visit when I come back.

I want to start by saying that the past year's performance of a corporation is not an indication of future success. You could look at Nortel, and look at BlackBerry, you could look at Canada 3000. Quarter after quarter, Canada 3000 was successful and the last quarter bankrupted the company.

I come from the chamber of commerce world. I come from the HR world where salaries and wages are always the most expensive line item in every single business.

Mr. Barrett, I want to pick up on something Mr. McCauley was talking about, which is the bargaining process that Canada Post goes through. They're trying to work out an agreement. They're trying to avoid a labour disruption, both employer and employee, but there's always the potential for one. They do have a monopoly over the delivery of mail, and in the middle is the customer waiting to see what happens. So over the summer what was your company doing? What were you doing in terms of planning to try to take into account that there might be a labour disruption?

11:40 a.m.

Director of Sales, Marketing and Development, Vesey's Seeds Ltd.

John Barrett

We moved some of our parcel delivery over to alternative services, particularly at times leading up to the expiration of a 72-hour notice or an eventual notice. So Canada Post lost some business from us. We incurred higher costs as a result of having to do that.

When it came to various address to admail deadlines, we had no options at all. Fortunately, we had mail dates in May and mid-July and August, and we were able to make all of those address to admails. We can't make alternative arrangements for those sorts of things.

I will note, though, as I mentioned in my brief, that when there is uncertainty across the country, people don't like to order. The particular catalogue that we're fulfilling orders for right now would be considered our fall bulb catalogue. That season runs from May 1 until about October 15 and our business from that catalogue is down about 10% or 12% this year. That's a catalogue from which business traditionally increases every year, by 5%, 6%, 8%, 9%.

I really don't have anything I could suggest for why business from that particular catalogue is down the amount it is, other than the threat of disruption.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

That doesn't sound very fair. You were stuck in the middle as the customer, the client—