Government Operations Committee on Oct. 7th, 2016

[François Senneville]

I understand the principle, except that, if you are talking about profits or savings made during the years or months that followed the installation of the community mailboxes, we do not yet have the concrete results because that is very recent.

We are told that everything stopped on October 20, but installing the community mailboxes had only started a few months earlier. At present, we are not in a situation where we can quantify the actual savings or profits. I do not know whether this answers your question.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ms. Trudel, you have seven minutes.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their presentations. As I said earlier, who better than workers to talk to us directly about their experience and help us understand the situation?

Mr. Simard and Mr. Senneville, given that you are really in the community, I would like you to tell us whether the post offices and the postal counters that have been closed by Canada Post, both in rural areas and in urban areas, were operating at a deficit or not. What are the reasons why Canada Post closed those post offices? What were Canada Post's justifications for those closings?

[Jean-François Simard]

I have two examples that come to mind. We spent nearly two years campaigning against the closings of post offices in urban areas and we succeeded in getting hold of the figures for the Chicoutimi-Nord post office that was closed. That post office exceeded its targets by more than 120%. It was making $300,000 in profits per year.

The reason why that post office was closed is that it was literally choked with postal counter franchises. At some point, Canada Post decided that it no longer needed to offer service directly since it was available in the pharmacies. That is why the Chicoutimi-Nord post office was closed.

That brings me to the question Mr. McCauley asked when he said there were additional costs associated with offering the service outside urban centres. There are no additional costs: the employee is already there, as is the building. It does not cost anything more. That does not really relate to your question.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

You said that Canada Post offered services in pharmacies. Are they owned by Canada Post? Are they Canada Post employees?

[Jean-François Simard]

No. I'm sorry, I spoke to you thinking it was clear to everyone.

These are really franchises, whether they are in Brunet or Jean Coutu or Pharmaprix, where a Canada Post franchise has been opened at the back of the pharmacy. However, they are not Canada Post employees. They do not offer the same services as Canada Post. They do not receive the same training. In addition, they do not have a security clearance for handling packages or people's passports. These people are subject to rotation. They may work on the cash, put bottles of shampoo on the shelves, or handle passports and people's confidential documents. They are not at all the same services. People who do business with them generally find that it is a somewhat unpleasant experience.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Do you have any statistics that show that service has declined outside urban centres where postal counters have been installed in pharmacies and the workers are not Canada Post employees?

[Jean-François Simard]

I do not have any statistics on that. All I have is a lot of examples. We work on the ground and we talk with customers. They often tell us that the pharmacy employee lost their parcel or cannot find their passport. When it is real Canada Post offices and real Canada Post employees, the work is done much more rigorously and these situations do not occur.

Unfortunately, I have no statistics on that, because I am someone who works on the ground.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Would you like to add something, Mr. Senneville?

[François Senneville]

I would like to mention two things.

I will give you, as an example, a situation that has happened in the past and is going on now in Gaspé. A post office was operating well and there were no financial difficulties. Two blocks away, there was a pharmacy in which a postal counter was opened. Bit by bit, the profit was siphoned off. Then the Canada Post post office was told that no money was coming in. That is an example. Sometimes, the post offices are together in the same town for years before the transfer is made.

Sometimes, the Canada Post post office makes cuts in personnel, whether among employees or clerks, or even worse, no one works from noon to 2:00 p.m., and the post office itself will direct people to the pharmacy for certain services. At a certain point, the Canada Post post office closes its doors. That is the conclusion.

The other thing you have to know is that the clerks who work in a Canada Post post office take intensive training for two to three weeks. That take training on the computer system, for example. In addition, they take a battery of tests to ensure the security of the mail. To work at Canada Post, you obviously have to have a clean record, which is not the case at the postal counters. When they are hired, these workers take a few days' training, then they start working. I do not want to denigrate their work. However, clearly, not as much resources are invested to train pharmacy employees in postal work as is done within Canada Post post offices.

I do not know whether that answers your question.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

I would like to know something else. You talked about training. We have talked about that from the standpoint of expanding services. Do Canada Post employees have the necessary training? Would they be able to offer new services? We talked about cellular phone services and creating postal banking services. If memory serves, the committee made about 37 recommendations. Are Canada Post employees qualified to adopt new working methods?

[François Senneville]

From the point when people have their security clearance at Canada Post, reliance is placed on the human capacity to learn. Obviously, the people at Canada Post are capable of doing a particular job.

When we talk about postal banking, the idea that immediately comes to mind is that overnight, there will be financial advisors in a post office doing mortgage loans and so on. It looks like a lot of work. It is as if that solution were not imaginable, since so much investment and work would be required.

Why not consider a job done by postal employees who would start out as savings account and chequing account managers from the outset? If memory serves, 1 million Canadians do not have access to a bank. What they need is a place where their paycheque will be deposited and they will be able to do simple transactions.

The organization I represent does not think this is such a huge job, and thinks postal employees are capable of doing it. If we asked them to do the same work as financial institutions and be capable of making loans and playing with enormous financial assets, that would not happen overnight. However, they can offer basic services.

[Karine Trudel, NDP, Jonquière, QC]

Are you able to confirm for us whether the government should demand the resignation of the heads of Canada Post, so new management can put forward a new orientation and exhibit greater openness?

[François Senneville]

If I may, I think the CEO's resignation has been requested in the past. We are watching what will happen next. Our organization will be bargaining in a year, not even. Obviously, we are waiting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ratansi, you have seven minutes.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Welcome, everybody. Thank you for your passion and your presentations.

We are here to listen. We're here to listen to creative solutions. We're also here to challenge your assumptions sometimes, so this is how it will be: I'll ask, and you can challenge me as well.

Monsieur Senneville, you talked about CUPW wanting to work with management, but as I listened to you, you also made it known that they have been manipulating the operations. When they manipulate the operations, they cause inefficiency, which leads to people being dissatisfied. Their parcels don't arrive, or they do arrive, but three days late instead of same-day delivery. They change the routes. For example, we heard in Ontario that Windsor mail has to go to Toronto to go back to Windsor to go to Detroit. Those are the types of issues we hear.

Do you think, on the ideas you would present to current management, that you would be able to work with current management or that they would be able to accept your ideas?

[François Senneville]

It is a particular situation. We are talking about improving things and proposing new creative approaches in the corporation. It is possible to do it, but we cannot do it with the existing management.

As I explained earlier, there is a very complete appendix to our collective agreement that already allows for new projects to be developed in the corporation in order to have a positive financial impact and improve employee satisfaction, but it is not being done. If I go by my experience, it is not possible at present.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

What sorts of new projects would you be suggesting? Give me an example.

[François Senneville]

It is possible under Appendix T, and that is done by bargaining.

During the bargaining process, there was talk, for example, about delivering parcels evenings and weekends. There was talk about extending services so letter carriers could be on the streets not just from 7:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., but could also work on Saturdays, Sundays and evenings. We can discuss those things under Appendix T, for example.

The question of postal banking could also be discussed under Appendix T. We could start to look at that. It is feasible; it is done by bargaining, under the collective agreement, and it does not cost the government anything.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

We have been listening to people, and they say there was no consultation when things were changed around.

Monsieur Simard, you say that there is one post office in Saint-Fulgence. There are no banks. Desjardins is not there. Does that post office have Internet access?

[Jean-François Simard]

I have no idea, because we cannot consider offering Internet service. I suppose they must do their transactions by Internet, but we in the village do not have access to it.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

If the post office doesn't have Internet access, would it be able to send money grants and do some easy transactions for the village?

Yes? It does that? Okay.

Monsieur St-Onge, you say that you would like to think of postal banking. Have you read any of the findings on the attempts by different countries—Japan, England, Switzerland—to do postal banking? Have you read any of those findings?

[Richard St-Onge]

Over the last three days, I have done some reading on postal banking. I have a few copies here of the FTQ brief, which is probably the best example. I think it refers to that.

Canada Post has also prepared a document, but I do not have a lot of experience, I could not tell you what happened in Japan.

If I understood correctly, some countries have found that one solution is that profits from postal banking make it possible to retain a high-quality postal system.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

In 2015, the English postal service challenged the banks, and it is now competing with the banks. It's an interesting phenomenon. It's an interesting private-public partnership, because it allows the experts to come in and help out.

I will ask this question of any of you: what are some of the challenges you think postal banking would create for the current employees?