Government Operations Committee on Feb. 7th, 2017

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Sure.

[Carl Trottier]

It has multiple questions. One of them is “Do you feel that you have been harassed?” Don't quote me on the question, but it's something like, “Have you been subjected to...?” It might go to, “From whom? Was it a supervisor, peer, or somebody else?” We come away with that type of information, but we don't do the correlation with wrongdoing.

To your previous point, however, there could be a whole multitude of grievances that absolutely have nothing to do, from near or far, with wrongdoing. They have to do with pay. They have to do with travel claims. They have to do with anything of any nature that has absolutely nothing to do with wrongdoing. I would say that the majority of claims are in that category, so it wouldn't be an indication of how much wrongdoing is not being declared. I'd caution against that.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that the whole grievance process was about wrongdoing, but I guess that's why I'm asking whether there is any way of measuring this, because it would be really interesting to know how many claims have to do with wrongdoing and whether, as you suggest, there's some alternative process to resolve this issue that is keeping people out of the more formal channels set up under the act.

[Carl Trottier]

I have one last response to that. Just listen to the words that I'm going to say: the violation of any act of Parliament or any act, legislated in Canada or the provinces and territories. That's not a small thing. That is a big thing, so hopefully there are not too many people in the public service who are violating these acts.

The misuse of public funds and public assets is also a big thing. You can see that this act is catching very big things. It shouldn't happen too frequently in the public service that we have gross mismanagement, doing something that will specifically endanger health, safety, or life. These are big things that are very serious in consequence, but that likely should not happen too often in the public service.

The breach of the code of conduct and knowingly directing or counselling someone to commit wrongdoing, that's what the act captures in terms of wrongdoing, and I would be shocked if we had tens of thousands of those because I don't think this would be appropriate.

So if the numbers are in the realm of 200 to 300 in total and I'm looking at 400,000 people, in respect of the significant nature of what a wrongdoing is, I think I can reconcile that.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's fair enough, and it is a difficult point. In an ideal world, the number would be zero. There wouldn't be any wrongdoing. There wouldn't be any need for the process at all.

[Carl Trottier]

Absolutely.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I think all of us suspect, though, that out of some 400,000 public servants, there likely are more than a few hundred who would have encountered some wrongdoing and might want some process to blow the whistle. I think that's where members of this committee are coming from.

[Carl Trottier]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Madam Ratansi.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'm sharing my time with Mr. Whalen.

Thank you for being here. I have a quick question for you. From a governance perspective, are you satisfied that the processes for reporting and moving forward to grievances are working?

[Carl Trottier]

For reporting and...?

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Grievance. The process for reporting and then forwarding it over to grievance, is it working or would you like to see some enhancements?

[Carl Trottier]

I'm going to take a stab at that, and then I'll hand it over to Mary Anne because there are some issues.

In the finding of wrongdoing where disciplinary action is required, there is the requirement to start over a whole new labour relations grievance process to be able to address that issue. That's a bit of a wobbly situation, and I don't have a solution in terms of how to amend that. It would be a good idea if the committee could take a look at that and have a sense of whether it's working or not.

Currently, we make it work. Once it's completed, then we start a new process where the information is then passed on to the new process. Then you start over. I'm not sure it's the most efficient one, but with the construct that we have, it's the way that we are compelled to do it right now.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Would you like to have it streamlined? If I come and complain, you take my complaint. Then I'm finished with this, and it takes the next step and goes to grievance. I'd have to repeat my story. It's a duplication of effort, right?

[Carl Trottier]

Yes.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you have anything to add?

[Carl Trottier]

No.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

As I was looking at the appendix, I was a little concerned. If you go to the complaints for 2015-16.... I think you have this appendix with you—

[Carl Trottier]

Yes.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Canada Border Services Agency has 93 complaints received, out of which only seven were acted upon and 70 were not acted upon. Less than 10% were acted upon.

Now when they submit that to you and you are the governance area, do you feel comfortable that things are going well, or do you feel that there has to be some better mechanism or better review process?

[Carl Trottier]

Just to begin, we do not have access to the document that you have.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

You don't? It's a Treasury Board one.

[Carl Trottier]

All I have is this....

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'll give you mine.

[Carl Trottier]

I think the question can be responded to nonetheless. You're saying there's a large number of cases put forward, but only a few cases are acted upon. Again, cases are put forward, and after they're put forward, they can be redirected. Therefore, it brings the numbers down. In some instances, there is no corrective action that can undo the situation.