Evidence of meeting #78 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wrongdoing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I just want to check quickly about your investigators. How many do you have? Are they contracted out?
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We have the ability to contract out, and I'll be very frank that our experience—
10 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
How many do you have, and what training do they go through?
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I'd be happy to share the job description with the committee, if you'd like to see it. All our investigators are required to come to us with significant and recent experience in administrative investigation.
As of Monday of next week, I believe we will have eight, or possibly nine, investigators on board.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm hearing from outside sources that they are very highly thought of. What training process do they go through once they come on board with you?
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
We have limited time, so perhaps the job description would suffice. If you could support that by giving it to our clerk, I'll share that with the committee.
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Sure.
They come to us trained and we try to keep training. For example, two days ago in our office, we had all-day training on difficult conversations and dealing with difficult people.
10 a.m.
Conservative
10 a.m.
Conservative
March 23rd, 2017 / 10 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
I would like to return to the Sylvie Therrien case. Previously I mentioned this damning judgment from the Federal Court of Appeal, but I would also like to touch on the current status of her case. My understanding is that the labour relations board has not yet ruled on whether it has jurisdiction to consider her case. As I think you mentioned, your office has taken the position that you can't deal with it because she's engaged in this other process. It seems that Ms. Therrien has really been left in limbo and I wonder what the solution is.
10 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Brian, you may have something to say.
I would also say in prefacing any observations my general counsel makes that this generally underscores—and I'll go back to my opening remarks and my own background and my own professional training—one of the great disadvantages of any adjudicative process, and that is time and backlogs and money—and the costs, which are both emotional and financial.
10 a.m.
General Counsel, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
As the Federal Court of Appeal set aside the former commissioner's decision rejecting some of the allegations, currently all of Madame Therrien's allegations are with us.
The investigation into some allegations and the analysis of the other allegations is currently in abeyance as we await the disposition of her matters before the PSLREB.
10 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Do you think she's proceeding in the correct way by going to the labour relations board, or do you think she should have done something differently, such as coming to your office?
10:05 a.m.
General Counsel, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I cannot comment on that; I'm sorry. We will assess the case.
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think that the way Madame Therrien came forward did not limit her options. It was the processes that respond to those options, if I can be that unclear.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
I appreciate that, and I appreciate that you may not be in a position to give advice to her, but that raises a more general question. Given that there are all these different processes and all these different avenues, should there be some kind of entity that can actually advise whistle-blowers about what route to take?
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We make every effort in our initial case analysis process to have conversations with people who come forward about their options, so that they're making informed decisions. This is very important to us at our intake and case analysis level.
I would also make the point that when our office was created, we were put in an already very crowded landscape, and we are operating in that crowded landscape. One risk that we want to manage and avoid is having more than one process dealing with the same case at the same time, from the perspective of duplication of resources, duplication of time and effort on the part of the complainant, and the possibility of conflicting outcomes. Here, the discretion to act and some of the prohibitions either to act or not to act are an attempt to address this crowded landscape.
To speak to the heart of your question, in the absence of an official body providing that information we try our very best to do it, which goes to some of the training I just mentioned, on communication.
There are outside entities that we see being very active in other countries as well, such as Public Concern at Work in the United Kingdom, which is always discussed when we're talking about whistle-blowing. Public Concern at Work is a registered charity; it's not a government body.
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We have non-governmental organizations that I know whistle-blowers go to for information as well.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
At our last meeting, Duff Conacher from Democracy Watch suggested some kind of entity to provide advice about what processes to pursue, particularly for people in the private sector who, as you acknowledge, may not even be aware of some of the provisions in the federal legislation.
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
The legislation does not purport to provide a private-sector whistle-blowing regime. It does extend in certain cases to the private sector, yes.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Yes, but do you think that this proposal from Democracy Watch is a good one, as a way of trying to extend whistle-blower protection into the private sector?
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I can say that I know federal unions are very active in supporting their members, some more than others, but I think it's an opportunity for unions. I can point to the Association of Canadian Financial Officers, ACFO, who I think are exemplary in the way they deal with educating and supporting their members with respect to our regime. The general counsel from ACFO was actually a witness before this committee.
I think, then, that the role of federal unions is important and the role of non-governmental organizations in civil society is very important in this regard.
We recognize that as the independent, neutral, objective, investigative decision-making body, we may not be perceived as necessarily the right body to provide advice. I thus make the distinction between advice and information, which I think is an extraordinarily important one. We provide information on a daily basis.
10:05 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Certainly, I agree with you about the important role of unions and non-governmental organizations, but is there a place for a governmental organization to provide that kind of advice?