Evidence of meeting #78 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wrongdoing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We're not bound by gag orders. If someone has signed an agreement in which they agree to keep confidential the details of whatever the dispute or the issue was, they can still make a disclosure to us. You can't—
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I'm sorry, in the context of the public interest then, I would like to know the details of all the allegations associated with the wrongdoing that you've mediated, and I'd want to see through any confidentiality provisions.
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We do not mediate wrongdoing.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
All reprisal issues are labour relations issues, although not all labour relations issues are reprisals.
That's like a settlement of a grievance, for example—
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I would tend to think that reprisal is a level of wrongdoing that speaks to a systemic failure of the human resources relationship within an organization. It speaks more broadly to the culture. I think it's interesting, when we're trying to review this legislation, to learn that the very interesting cases that we might have access to in order to see some of the nuanced approaches are shielded from us because of confidential settlement agreements that your office has negotiated.
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Our office doesn't negotiate them. We don't act as the mediator, we actually—
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
No, we pay for the process and we hire a third party neutral who is agreed to by the parties. We mediate or conciliate a reprisal case only if the parties, including the complainant, agree to it. In very many cases, the complainant asks for that confidential process, because they don't want their—
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
At what stage does the public interest consent to the process? You're the gatekeeper on that. You exercise your authority at some stage to say, “I'm sorry, this is too important. This needs to go to a tribunal, and this can't remain confidential. This type of retaliation goes beyond the dispute. This isn't just a labour grievance, because if it was, it wouldn't be before my office anyway, if there's a public interest. It's not a labour matter.”
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Conciliation is something that we agree to, that we propose, so we do that. Every time we've had a conciliation, there is a written analysis put forward as to whether or not this is the right stage for conciliation, and whether or not the parties are in agreement. There's a legal analysis.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I will note that's only about a fifth of the cases. In the other 80% of the cases, we're still seeing that a lot of reprisal cases aren't getting heard.
Mr. Clarke, thank you. You can continue.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Friday, on Monday evening or Tuesday morning, a witness led us to believe that your office is not setting an example. According to this witness, both you and the former commissioner should have disclosed certain wrongdoings.
I would like to hear your response to that.
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Pardon me?
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
There was a witness on Monday night or Tuesday morning who expressed the fact that, according to him, there was some wrongdoing in your office, and that no commissioner, neither you nor the one before you, has been whistle-blowing on the fact. What would you answer to this?
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
With respect to the first commissioner and the Auditor General's findings against her?
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think that's what...yes, if that's what he's talking about, I can say that as a member of the office at that time, I was interviewed. I fully participated, and I shared all of my experiences and observations, positive and negative—as everyone in the office did—respecting that. I would remark that, in that situation in 2010, it was extremely divisive. I'm almost reminded of the post-election situation in the United States. I think people had very different observations and very different personal experiences with the first commissioner, and the Auditor General made a decision, which we accepted. For example, the two people, who I found out only after they came public, were the people who came forward to the Auditor General. They were people I had never even worked with and have never met to this day. It was a difficult situation. The first commissioner resigned as a result.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
One of our colleagues, Mr. Ayoub, also mentioned this week that whistle-blowers are important for democracy and for identifying wrongdoings in society. It's for the good of public interest. As soon as a whistle-blower identifies a wrongdoing, why don't we have a system that takes the responsibility off his shoulders and have the state look at everything on behalf of the person?
9:30 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
When a whistle-blower comes forward—and our act specifically says the whistle-blower has to bring as much information as possible—we then take it from that person on behalf of the public interest. If the whistle-blower wants to disappear, they can, and many do. They say, “Here's the problem. Deal with it.” Then it becomes mine. We never negotiate away a wrongdoing. We never mediate a wrongdoing. We take that and act with it.
9:30 a.m.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
It shows that the independence of my office is important.
