Evidence of meeting #79 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wrongdoing.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, it's the forces, CSIS, and the Canadian Security Establishment.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
One issue that has come up a bit at this committee is the importance of independent investigations. Certainly having them is a worthy objective, but it seems to me that an even more important goal might be to have independent decision-making or independent adjudication after the investigation has been completed.
Do you agree with that statement?
4:40 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Under the Financial Administration Act, the deputy heads are responsible for managing the act. I can't think of—
I'm sorry. What was the second part of your question again?
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
I guess what I'm getting at here is that there might be a problem with the senior management of the department ultimately being the arbiter of a system that could involve whistle-blowing against them or against other senior management.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
All deputy heads have the authority and the responsibility to take the reports and take them seriously.
If there is an apparent or perceived conflict and they are worried about it, they have the option of either asking another department to carry it out or asking the commissioner himself to carry it out.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Unfortunately, I think we'll have to cut it off. I gave you a little extra time, Mr. Weir, from my own agenda.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I misunderstood the question at first.
March 23rd, 2017 / 4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. Smart and Mr. Trottier, for coming to speak with us today about this important review of the act, timely as it is.
I have some questions that relate to what we envision the act might be and the types of objects we should see for the act. I'm not sure whether this is something you are able or are prepared to respond to, but concerning the right of expression, the preamble to the act talks about balancing the duties of loyalty versus the duty to have the freedom of expression granted by the charter.
I'm trying to reconcile what possible duty of loyalty there could be that needs to be protected when someone is trying to disclose wrongdoing.
Maybe you can describe for the committee what type of duty of loyalty might be violated here and why this needs to be a consideration in the act.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
In what context is this....?
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I can read it. This is the fourth paragraph of the preamble to the act. It says:
public servants owe a duty of loyalty to their employer and enjoy the right to freedom of expression... and that this Act strives to achieve an appropriate balance between those two important principles
I'm trying to see where this duty of loyalty even plays in. Aren't they being loyal by disclosing wrongdoing?
I'm trying to find out why that's even in the preamble and maybe get your views on whether or not it can come out.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
When you sign your letter of offer, you have the code, you sign the code, you take the training. If you come across wrongdoing, I think it is an employee's duty, if you like, to tell somebody. If they are not comfortable internally, as I said, they have the external commissioner to whom they could disclose as well.
Whether it's loyalty or.... I don't know why they put it in the preamble, but I'm saying that as a public servant who has signed the code of ethics and values and takes it to heart and works in the federal public service, I would think most if not all people would say it's their duty to report wrongdoing if they see it.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Right. There should, then, be no conflict between the obligations and rights under this act and the duty of loyalty to the employer, because they are meant to be synergistic, aren't they?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'm not aware of the assumptions and the discussion that put that in. I'm just describing to you how I see it.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
In terms of other objectives of the act, how important is confidentiality to the disclosures in the majority of cases? Shouldn't we be encouraging a more open system, in which any disclosures of possible wrongdoing can be discussed in an open and frank way, or is it truly important to have confidentiality?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
My views are based on my experience in the public service. I think confidentiality is absolutely imperative. If the reports come out and they start to name the wrongdoer....
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I was talking about the reports that would name the discloser. It's a different question, but maybe you can answer my first question first.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Why don't I finish?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
If it's really serious, why shame them? You want the person to rehabilitate, take whatever discipline is coming, and then hopefully learn lessons from it. Depending on the seriousness, it's always on a case-by-case basis. But I don't see any gain in disclosing names in that situation. I would respect the Privacy Act on that one.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay. My question was about the need to protect the identity of the person who's bringing forward the claim. Maybe you can answer that, and then we'll probe a little into why we're protecting the wrongdoers.
4:50 p.m.
Chief Human Resources Officer, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
If you knew who was putting forward the claim.... Again, it depends on the situation, but if I knew that my name was going to become public, I might not want to make the disclosure. I think we're trying to have a culture where employees feel that when they see wrongdoing, and they have some evidence, and they really feel very strongly, they should be able to disclose and be guaranteed confidentiality.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
As a citizen, not even as an MP, when I think there's wrongdoing, it should be disclosed, and the perpetrators of the wrongdoing should be punished. If we have a system in place that is preventing the wrongdoers from being appropriately punished because their identities are shielded, the investigations are shielded, it sounds as if our act protects the wrongdoers more than it protects the people trying to correct the wrongdoing. It's been spoken about at length in our committee. Do you disagree with that statement?
4:50 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think what Anne Marie is saying is that we have to keep sight of what the objective is here. First of all, it's to prevent wrongdoing. How do we go about preventing wrongdoing? We conduct investigations and we give discipline. There has to be an awareness that discipline can come out of this exercise. It's not the shaming that comes out of this, it's the discipline that needs to be offered.