Evidence of meeting #83 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was young.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
That requires an immediate vote. It's not debatable.
(Motion agreed to)
Mr. Clarke, you still have time. I won't dock you for your time for presenting the motion, so you do have some time left for questions for Mr. Borbey.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Fine.
Mr. Borbey, thank you for your patience.
You spoke earlier about the integration of young people into the public service. I would like to know at this time whether that recruitment is positive or negative, that is to say whether a lot of young people are being recruited.
9:05 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
From what I see, the tendency over the past few years has been that the public service is aging. Young people of 35 or less, if I remember correctly, make up a smaller proportion of the public service as a whole. We have fallen behind, clearly, and we have some work to do.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I would like to point to two important aspects of eventual careers in the public service. One of them may repel young people, whereas the other one should on the contrary attract them.
As you specified in reply to a question from Mr. Drouin, young people today expect to have three, four, five or six different jobs over 40 years. The public service, while offering the possibility of acquiring diverse experience, allows people to follow that same path without necessarily having to change jobs. It would be interesting to promote that aspect with young people.
However, I am concerned about their interest in the public service, to the extent that, as you said earlier, that environment requires total dedication, a sense of duty and a respect for hierarchy. Today, in the post-modern context, people turn their backs on hierarchy.
One article I read said that the army is finding it harder and harder to recruit people. I was a member of the Canadian armed forces for five years, and I'm very happy to have had that experience. But since I am only 31, I can relate to young people. I know that hierarchy and a sense of duty are not what attracts them the most. That was a comment rather than a question.
That said, do you think it would be possible to present duty, dedication, continuity and respect for hierarchy in a way that could attract young people?
That is quite a challenge, I know, but I'd like to hear your point of view.
9:05 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
I agree with the first part of your statement. We want to attract people who adhere to the values of the public service, who have a sense of dedication, and who understand that a career in the public service implies that you are working for your country and that this may sometimes require personal sacrifice. In my opinion, we have to promote that aspect. However, except for the military, I think, frankly, that less emphasis has to be put on respect for the hierarchy.
9:05 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
Personally I like the idea that people who might like to shake things up a bit join the public service. I am talking here about people who are not afraid to speak, who say what they think, who have opinions and who will question the status quo. I think everyone can benefit from that.
In fact, if you look at the history of the public service, you can see that in the 1960s and 1970s, the public service recruited a lot of people, who, in addition to having values and a sense of dedication, had new ideas and put a lot of energy into defending them.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
Exactly. One could draw parallels.
To me, respect for hierarchy is somewhat less important. However, you raised an important point in the beginning of your intervention, which was the variety of roles and experiences one can have during a career. I often like to refer to my own experience. I spoke of 12 departments, but within those, I occupied almost 20 different positions. We have to promote the variety of positions offered by the public service to young people, the opportunity they can have of doing different things, of working on the international scene or in the regions. If we talk about this a bit more, we will be able to reach young people who are ready to commit.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
I couldn't say. I think they are quite competitive salaries.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Mr. Borbey, a question suddenly comes to mind. Do you think that we should further decentralize the public service, for instance by installing more offices in the regions? What is your point of view on that?
9:10 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
I have always been in favour of decentralization, to give the regions more roles and powers. In all of the departments I worked for, I found that our regions provided a certain wealth that was not always exploited fully. The Department of Canadian Heritage is not an exception. I find that the regions' place has shrunk over the past few years, both with respect to the size of their teams and their influence. Ever since I came here, I have tried to see how we could broaden their role.
There is another interesting aspect, thanks to new technology. It is possible to have programs that are managed in a given region, but have a national impact. There is no reason why we could not do that. So there are some opportunities in that area. I would like to find a way of improving the situation. This could also attract people who are interested in the public service, such as people who are proud to be Acadians or Newfoundlanders, for example, and who would like to work in their own regions if possible.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you, Mr. Borbey, for coming today and for your presentation.
You spoke about attracting young people to the public service and also about your own experience transitioning from summer employment into a long and illustrious civil service career.
My sense is that there are young Canadians who are interested in working with the federal government, but that their experience is to be stuck in a series of short-term contracts, to never really to able to translate that summer or contract employment into something more permanent.
I wonder if you see the same trend, and if so, what are your thoughts on it?
9:10 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
One thing I would have to do when in the position is study the data. I've looked at the annual report, and yes, there are some trends there. I'm not sure we've seen a significant increase in casual employment, for example, but we can see that a large proportion of the new entries in the public service in the last year were hired in casual employment positions, so I'd like to look at that.
We also hire a large number of students every year. The advantage of using student programs is that once you're in as a student, any department in the government or agency can bridge you into full-time employment once you graduate, and that makes it a lot easier for managers. You develop a relationship with a student. You like what they offer. You see the potential, and therefore after graduation...in fact you can even provide a letter of offer before they graduate that is conditional on graduation. I think we can do more in that area, and it does bring in people in permanent positions.
I will have to look at the information in that area to see. I know that a large number of Canadians apply for positions on an annual basis, so there's no doubt in my mind there is interest in jobs in the public service, but I know that quite often even our young people become discouraged, because six months or a year after applying, they still haven't heard. They don't know what the status is. That's unacceptable. When we're trying to get the best and the brightest to join us, we can't leave them hanging for six or 12 months.
9:10 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Without prejudging your examination of the data, if you found there was a trend in the direction of more contract or precarious employment, would you see it as a negative trend?
9:15 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
I'd have to study what exactly the conditions are. As you know, sometimes casual employment can be used to bring back people who have some skills and can help contribute also to corporate memory transfer.
Again, I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions, but I think we still have a public service in which the vast majority of positions are indeterminate positions. Certainly the trends haven't been to that great a shift in their overall proportion.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
In terms of attracting and retaining qualified people, I wonder if you could comment on the Phoenix pay system. It seems to me that the main thing that a lot of Canadians have heard about federal public service employment over the past year is that people aren't getting paid and that it's still a mess, even more so than a year after the new payroll system was implemented.
What's your sense of the Phoenix pay fiasco's effect on attracting people to the federal public service and retaining them?
9:15 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
You're asking me to comment on a program for which I don't have responsibility, but I have to say that all senior public servants share in the responsibility to make sure that our employees are paid, and paid accurately and on a timely basis.
In our department, in my role, I made sure that we were well aware of any errors, issues, omissions, or overpayments. We tried to work with Miramichi, with the people at PSPC, to correct those as quickly as possible. We also proactively offered advance payments to staff, to make sure they weren't facing any hardship.
Recognizing that there is a reputation issue—you're absolutely right—we are taking measures to ensure that one of the first issues we raise with our students who are hired in the department, after showing them their desk and where the washrooms are, is to ask if they want an advance on their pay. It may have been a little while ago, but I do remember the first few weeks at the end of the school year when I was waiting for my first paycheque. Those were tough times.
We will make sure that our students know that if they need an advance payment, we'll provide it. We will make sure that everything we do in the department to register them in the system, have all the right documentation, the accurate pay codes and rates.... We will do our share to make sure that happens.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
You mentioned official languages and your role in the establishment of Heritage Canada.
As the incoming head of the Public Service Commission, do you have a view on whether the federal government's translation bureau should be part of the Department of Public Services and Procurement, or whether it would be better as part of the Department of Canadian Heritage?
9:15 a.m.
Nominee for the position of President of the Public Service Commission, As an Individual
Those are questions that I think need to be addressed to our political masters.
I will say, though, that when I was part of the team that created the Department of Canadian Heritage, I had the responsibility of transferring the translation bureau to the then department of public works and negotiating that transfer. That was done for valid reasons by the government of the day. If the government of today decides that it should be done differently, it's up to them, and we will act accordingly.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Okay.
On maintaining the high professional standards of interpreters and translators, one issue that's come up is contracting out, and proposals for different systems of contracting in that field. It seems to me that one important bottom line is to make sure that people working in interpretation and translation are qualified to federal government standards.
Do you agree, or do you have views on how that work should be organized?