Government Operations Committee on June 8th, 2017

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are you saying the PBO's statement is just an opinion?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I have great respect for the PBO's work, but it doesn't mean I agree with every utterance from PBO. They may have a difference of opinion from us—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Minister, we'll have to leave it there.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

—which is absolutely fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Peterson, you have five minutes, please.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us.

Again, congratulations on your 20 years of being a member of Parliament. You, along with, I think, Mr. MacAulay and Mr. Goodale, now represent the old guard of Parliament, so congratulations.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thanks very much.

[Renée LaFontaine]

Sages.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

On that esteemed accomplishment....

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Sages.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Faint praise.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. MacAulay, Cardigan, of course, not Mr. McCauley here.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

My eyes are still pretty good, and I think you have more grey hair than I do.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I do. I spent a lot of time in the private sector. That might explain that.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

There's no stress in politics.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

But thank you for being here.

First of all, Mr. Pagan, I think you ran out of time with Mr. McCauley. If you want to expand on the plan that...you were about to illustrate an example of how that plan is working—

[Brian Pagan]

Thank you.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

—and if the Minister wants to expand on those steps, that would be great.

[Brian Pagan]

Just for the benefit of the committee and observers, the Minister did table a plan to this committee last year. It's a four-point plan that addresses timing; the need to reconcile the scope and universe and accounting of estimates; budget processes to provide better control for Parliament by purpose, rather than by inputs; and finally, better reporting, using online tools such as InfoBase so that committee members and Canadians can access, in real time, information about how government departments are spending their money.

That is the plan, and that has been developed in consultation with departments and other central agencies. We are ready to execute if we can get agreement to move forward.

There was a question. The PBO quite rightly observed that we have fewer budget items in the supplementaries this year than we did last year. We take no issue with his observation. If the question is what can we gain by changing the timing of the main estimates, I would advance three arguments for you, sir.

The first is that we would be able to reconcile immediately the estimates and the budget. Right now we're doing that post-fact with the supplementary estimates (A). That's number one.

The second one is that we have this situation now, where in this supply period, we are going to be presenting full supply for main estimates and incremental supply, supplementary supply, for these supplementaries (A). There is a very specific example, Marine Atlantic. VIA Rail is another. If we had the estimates after the budget, the confusion that's created by the two documents would not be necessary.

In the 2016-17 main estimates, Marine Atlantic's authorities from Parliament were $140 million. In the 2017-18 estimates that were tabled February 23, the authorities provided to Marine Atlantic were $76 million. That's almost a 50% reduction.

In these supplementary estimates (A), as a result of the budget decision that came after the tabling of main estimates, Marine Atlantic is seeking $135.9 million from funding that was confirmed in the budget. Therefore, we're going from $140 million down to $76 million and back up to $211 million. Had we had the estimates after the budget, that apparent reduction would not have been the case, and, in fact, there would not be a requirement for these supplementary estimates. Those amounts would have been included in the main estimates for Marine Atlantic.

The same situation applies with VIA Rail, and it has applied with other departments in the past. Therefore, when the president speaks of the importance of getting the timing right, there are certain budget decisions that are ongoing funding. We don't require elaborate Treasury Board approvals or controls. Once we get that budget decision, we can basically automatically reflect that in the main estimates. That is one of the very real gains from getting the timing right. There are other new initiatives that are identified in the budget that will require some consultation with partners and some challenge from Treasury Board before they're brought forward. They will likely remain elements of budget funding that are brought in through the subsequent supplementaries, but as the Minister says, if we can get the basic processes right, we can shorten that timeline so that it's much more timely.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Yes, until you get the timing right on a permanent basis, any progress made year to year will be halting. Part of this is sending more than a clear signal. Actually having the sequencing right, departments and agencies, Finance and Treasury Board, builds, year over year, a deeper and closer relationship between departments and central agencies like Finance and Treasury Board to incorporate and take into account the two processes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

In terms of what we want to achieve, I think the PBO would be in broad concurrence with strengthening the process.

Where we differ is whether or not it's a priority to do the sequencing. I feel confident that it would be the right thing to get the sequencing right and have the main estimates after the budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Weir, you have three minutes.

Then we'll excuse our witnesses and bring the PCO officials to the table.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

The supplementary estimates include $1.6 million for regulatory alignment with Canada's trade partners. Which regulations does the Treasury Board plan to change?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

That's a great question, Erin.

There are a couple of things. There is regulatory co-operation as part of CETA. There is a discussion with CETA partners around regulatory co-operation. There is also the RCC, the Regulatory Cooperation Council, which has been in place for some time. It was established when President Obama was there, under the previous, Conservative government, and it is focused on Canada-U.S. regulatory co-operation.

There has been some progress. With trading partners like the U.S., there is a tyranny of small differences, in some ways, between our regulations.