Evidence of meeting #99 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ministry.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian McCowan  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office
Martha Boyle  Privy Council Officer, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I thought such protocols were under the Financial Administration Act.

Let's go just back to the very beginning, Mr. McCowan, when I asked about when the cost started for the added cars for the old ministers of state, and the salaries. You were saying that.... I asked the minister, she said, literally, from day one, the day they were swearing in. My understanding is it came about a couple of weeks later when the whole thing blew up that it wasn't a true gender-equal cabinet because we have these five junior ministries that were occupied by women.

You said you were going to get back to us on it. You said it was something you would look into it and confirm, or was the minister correct that from day one they had the car allowance and everything else that came with the full ministry?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

First, I don't remember the news coverage in question that you're referring to. I thought your question, as I heard it the first time round, was in relation to salaries. I thought I heard you say that there was something in relation to back pay. We can certainly go back and I'd be happy to undertake to look into it if your understanding is that there is some issue about a back pay. My understanding is the salary was paid from day one, and it was the same for all of them.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay.

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

But if you'd like, we can go back and look and see if there is some issue where it took a couple of weeks for it to kick in or whatever.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

No, that's fine.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I think what Mr. McCauley is getting at is were these ministers of state paid full ministerial salaries plus all of the perks, car allowance, driver, that type of thing from day one or was it a few weeks or a period of time after they became ministers of state that their salaries had been increased. Could you confirm that?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

I'm happy to look into it. I hadn't understood the second part of the question. I thought it was related to salaries, but I'm happy to look into it and we can provide to the committee a summary of how that happened.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Are you familiar with the Senate finance committee's concerns about how the money was paid out of supplementary estimates?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

I understood that there was a discussion around that, and if my memory serves me right I think there was actually a ruling from the Speaker in the House. What I can say to you is the method by which the money is flowing now in terms of the ministers of state and the ministers is the same as it's been for several decades. There's nothing unusual in terms of what's happening with this ministry as compared to earlier ministries.

The salaries of ministers are paid under the Salaries Act. In terms of ministers of state it flows under the appropriations.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. McCauley, you asked me to interrupt when you had about a minute left.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm out of time, but, thank you.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to have the committee's attention. I would like to bring forward a notice of motion.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee immediately undertake a study of no less than 4 meetings on the proposed changes to the tax system outlined in the government’s consultations titled “Tax Planning Using Private Corporations” as publicly released on July 18, 2017, in order to assess the potential impact of the changes and the additional resources that will be needed by the Government of Canada in order to enforce the consultation paper’s proposals; That the Committee report its findings to the House; And that the government provide a response to the recommendations made by the committee.

I put that on notice.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Just give me a moment to consult with our clerk. I believe your motion is in order, but just one moment.

Thank you, colleagues. The motion is in order. The motion was actually delivered and received by the clerk about a week ago, on September 25.

The motion is in order, Mr. Shipley. You can certainly speak to the motion and I will ask for a show of hands for a speakers list.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Chair, can we excuse the witnesses?

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. Shipley, we have about 25 minutes left. Could you give us an indication...? I'd like to see a show of hands first. If it looks as if several people are going to be speaking, then I'll certainly excuse the witnesses.

It appears to me, and it's only a judgment call, that we'll probably be going until the top of the hour. In that case, Mr. McCowan and Madam Boyle, thank you for your appearance here today. You are excused.

We will suspend for about two minutes while we reset for the motion.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, I'll reconvene.

I have one quick update for the committee's consideration. At some point we have to get into the drafting instructions for the report on government advertising. From a procedural standpoint, Mr. Shipley can speak to his motion. We will continue speaking to the motion as long as there are people on the speakers list.

However, as chair, I will have the ability to interject at any time, just to be able to deal with matters. We will have to go in camera to deal with the drafting instructions. If that happens, we will resume again with the person who was last on the speakers list and continue in that fashion.

I want to make sure everyone is aware, procedurally, of what will happen. I want to make sure, particularly with the report on government advertising, that the drafting instructions have been given, and we can move on whenever this motion has been dispensed with.

In other words, I may be interrupting in about 10 minutes or so. Mr. Shipley, until then, the floor is yours.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and all of my colleagues.

I don't suspect it would be an issue with wanting to actually look at this.

When tax reforms come in, they basically affect every jurisdiction, and certainly the majority of the job creators in my province and in every province across the nation. We know that for sure. Every MP, regardless of what position or what party we are in, has been receiving a multitude of calls, letters, and emails regarding concerns on these tax reforms.

One of the concerns is that in July, in the middle of summer, the government dropped this onto our businesses—as they have done with a couple of other things, actually. Another was in agriculture, in terms of a national strategy policy and Canada's food guide. That said, they dropped this in the middle of summer, when people are away, when families are engaged in what families want to do in the summer across Canada when we can spend some time with family, and they then put in a 75-day consultation time.

I think they forgot.... I'm not sure why. But in agriculture that's huge. Summer is a busy time in agriculture, because they are in the midst of finishing the planting. The livestock people are in the midst of harvesting, and then obviously, through the summer we are into a number of crops that are being harvested. But then to stop it in October, which is sort of interesting, just after kids have gone back to school.... Small businesses are planning for the year. They're getting ready for the seasons that come up, and of course, agriculture is then into the main harvest.

Right now we have individuals from all businesses, and we've all heard their concerns in terms of these tax reforms, particularly about the targeting of small business owners. If I remember right, two-thirds of small business owners make something like $63,000 or $70,000 a year. The government has chosen to target these individuals, these family.... I would love to take the opposition to all the family-run small businesses that you're targeting that are anguished because they don't know what to do, whether they're in farming or they run a bicycle repair and sales store, or they're running their Tim Hortons or McDonald's franchise. And it's compounded in Ontario by a number of things the Liberal government in Ontario has put on.

The interesting part that really bothers me is that I get the question, “What about the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance? They are multi-millionaires and have all this money. What extra are they paying?” I say, “Right now, until they change it, there is no impact to them. It's all about you.” That becomes another frustrating part for them, because they look at it and say, “But he talks about the middle class.” I say, “Yes, pretty much every day, then turns around and sticks it to you at every opportunity—except he did give you more for child care, but actually if you go back, the cost extra to you, as the middle class”—as they call it; I call it the middle-income earners in our country—“you'll see you're now dinged about another $800 more than you were before they took office.” It is a concern.

That's part of the reason this has come forward.

The other part of it, Mr. Chair and colleagues, is that there is an incompetence that has happened within the governing Liberal Party, because they say they're going to raise the taxes to generate income.

What they aren't talking about is what the professional accountants and economists in my riding are saying. I think they're likely as wise as the ones giving the government their expertise and advice, but these guys—and these ladies, quite honestly, who are amazing at the public meetings—are raising huge issues about what this is going to do to impact our families. These are not the large multinationals that are in the public domain. They're not the offerings that we see in the TSX. No, no, these are the ones you see when you drive down the main street. I don't care if you're on the main street of Toronto, Hamilton, Fredericton, London, Strathroy-Caradoc, or Wallaceburg in my area, these are the folks on the street, folks. These are the guys who have the engineering or the manufacturing along the side....

To go back to the incompetence, they'll say, “But I was told...and we believed them. When they got elected, they promised...” Well, actually, they promised at every meeting that we would have this small deficit of $10 million. Now that's going to double or triple, “But don't worry, because we're going to tax that top 1%. We're going to tax those rich people and give it to you.”

They hoped to have raised a couple of billion dollars out of that, but in fact, when you start taxing people, things actually go in the reverse, so now, instead of gaining $2 billion, they have lost revenues of $1 billion. Instead of having a plus now, they're in the negative.

They promised our small business people that they were going to lower that business tax down to 9%. I'm waiting for the Minister of Finance to actually step up to the plate on that promise also, but he hasn't mentioned that. He hasn't mentioned it to our small business people. He just hasn't done that, but what he wants to do is bring forward these reforms that protect the elite and protect those who don't have to worry, so here we go.

I think that for everybody here, this is a concern. I think it's important for all of us, and I'm sure my friends on the other side will want to know what the potential impact is. I don't know how we can talk to these folks without giving them...because there are all kinds of stories out there right now, but nobody will give the details. This will help us.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, Mr. Shipley.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

So let's wrap it up. I suggest we go to a vote on it.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Call a vote.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

If there are more speakers on the speakers list, I cannot call a vote.

If you have concluded your remarks, Mr. Shipley, I will go to the next person on our speakers list. Have you concluded your remarks?

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

To assist Mr. Shipley, I move that the debate be now adjourned.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

That is a non-debatable motion that calls for an immediate vote.

(Motion agreed to)

The debate is adjourned. I will now suspend for a couple of moments while we go in camera and discuss the drafting of the government report on advertising.

[Proceedings continue in camera]