Evidence of meeting #99 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ministry.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian McCowan  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office
Martha Boyle  Privy Council Officer, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

12:25 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Fair enough.

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

Thank you, Chair, I appreciate the comment. I'll do my best to answer within the scope of being a public servant.

What I would say to you is that there are a number of departments around town that are similar. ESDC has a similar structure. The machinery of government has been built up not by one builder but by a whole series of builders over time, and in the course of many people having had their hands on the mortar, the bricks, and the trowel, you have all sorts of variations in approach across government. This is an attempt to give a rationalization to one component of that. I can't speak on behalf of the government to other parts. What I can say is that this is an attempt to rationalize this corner of the structure and to give life to the objectives the minister articulated.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I have Madam Shanahan down, but I'm not sure if anyone on the government side wants another intervention or not. Madam Ratansi suggested you had exhausted your questions, but please go ahead if you have some.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you, Chair, for this opportunity to explore a bit further.

It's sort of like a seminar on government organizational models. I find it very interesting, because we had a discussion about how other Westminster countries approach their government structures, to which I imagine they have made changes over time as well. I come from the private sector so forgive me, but it seems to be particular to government to be able to adopt an entirely new structure if it so desires when it enters government, which you wouldn't see necessarily in a public company.

Our government has chosen this whole-of-government approach. It's something we're all learning about, so I appreciate your explanation and comments about that.

Am I right in saying that in the previous government, there were positions called “secretary of state”? Were there three positions for secretary of state for small business, for multiculturalism and identity, and for the Asia-Pacific gateway? Is that something that...?

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

I'm going from memory here, which is always a dangerous thing to do. I believe there were a number of “ministers of state” in the previous government. I don't have the list in front of me, so I would be going from memory, which, as I say, is probably a dangerous thing to do, but how can I assist in...?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Then my question would be this. It seems that there was some flexibility there in naming different parliamentarians to different positions, so how would those secretary of state positions differ from a minister of state or a parliamentary secretary, for example?

12:25 p.m.

Privy Council Officer, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Martha Boyle

This is a bit of a historic question, but I think that secretaries of state were the precursor of ministers of state. When the Ministries and Ministers of State Act came into place, secretaries of state were ended. I would say that the last secretary of state may have been in the 1970s.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Very interesting.

12:25 p.m.

Privy Council Officer, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Martha Boyle

You are quite right in saying that in the last government, for example, there was a minister of state for small business, a minister of state for multiculturalism, and a minister of state for ACOA.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Okay, so the difference is that the title changes.

In previous administrations, was it the practice that each minister had a mandate letter?

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

I can't speak authoritatively for all of history, but what's unique about the current ministry is that they have mandate letters that were made public.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

So we don't know if previous ministers had any kind of mandate letter whatsoever. That wouldn't be a matter of record.

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

It's beyond the scope of what I can speak to in terms of this particular appearance. What I can tell you is clearly for this ministry there are mandate letters and they're public.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

They are public. So clearly that's the first time that mandate letters for ministers have been made public.

12:25 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

To my knowledge, that's correct.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Certainly, as a parliamentarian, I find them very useful. I consult them regularly.

Maybe, Mr. Chair, we should have had a parliamentary historian here with us today.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

The chair is always open to suggestions. Just name that person.

If you have no more questions, I'll go across to our next intervenor.

Mr. Shipley or Mr. McCauley? You have five minutes between the two of you.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'll do four minutes and Mr. Shipley will do one minute.

Ms. Shanahan, I always enjoy history lessons, so thanks for bringing it up.

Mr. McCowan and Ms. Boyle, I have a very simple question. As opposed to traditional ministers, do these new ministers have equal powers—not an equal voice, but equal statutory responsibilities in the cabinet?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

Every minister has unique powers, duties, and functions, depending on their responsibilities.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Do they have all the powers of a regular full minister? Does the minister of state for women have the same statutory powers as the Minister of Finance?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

As you know, there's a unique series of considerations that goes with each minister, and after the coming into force of this ministry there were also some orders in council that transferred some powers, duties, and functions to—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

The minister of state for status of women wouldn't be able to deliver a memorandum to cabinet under these new rules.

12:30 p.m.

Privy Council Officer, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Martha Boyle

The minister of state for status of women is responsible for the department that is called the Office of the Coordinator, Status of Women, and she can take forward MCs on her own with respect to that department.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

But does it have to be co-signed?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

Ian McCowan

No, it is the policy of this Prime Minister under this cabinet that ministers can take forward items, MCs, on their own. But it is also the expectation that if it crosses the mandates of other ministers they should be co-signed, and that's true for all ministers.