Evidence of meeting #21 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caroline Maynard  Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Michael A. Dagg  As an Individual
Allan Cutler  President, Anti-Corruption and Accountability Canada
Sean Holman  Associate Professor of Journalism, Mount Royal University, Canadian COVID-19 Accountability Group
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Okay. I'll quickly switch topics.

Can you give me an idea of the number of ATIP requests you received prior to and after COVID-19, and what kind of responses you've had?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Do you mean requests or complaints?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I mean complaints.

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Okay, because I'm dealing with the complaints too at TBS.

This year we've seen a small increase in complaints. With respect to COVID itself, strangely enough we haven't seen that many, but I think in most cases when there's a crisis, the complaints and requests come after everybody is coming down. It was the same thing with Lac-Mégantic. We saw a huge surge of requests and complaints after the crisis, so that's what I'm expecting. That's one of the things I highlighted for Mr. Duclos. We can't wait because there's going to be a surge of requests and complaints coming from the—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I have about 15 seconds left.

If you were going to make one recommendation, aside from resources and system updates, what would it be?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

It would be a change of culture.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We'll now go, for five minutes, to Madam Vignola.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us today, Ms. Maynard.

You said earlier that little things should be done to improve the situation and do more. Can you give two or three examples of those simple little things to be done?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

The authorities should look into the way information is shared and the way it is managed.

First, people now use email a lot. When we receive an information access request on a specific topic, we can end up with 500 pages of text exchanged by email that has nothing to do with the decision or the policy as such. Since everything is done by email, the analyst in charge of revising the document must go over all the emails that were not saved properly or were not eliminated. Eight people can receive the same email, and they will respond to the same access request. What is really needed is better information management within government.

Another issue is that the systems are completely obsolete. A huge number of information transfers happens on paper. In 2020, people could definitely use systems such as Postel to transfer the information to the applicant instead of sending it by mail.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

You were saying earlier that the number of requests has gone up by 225%. I assume that you expect the number of requests to explode again once the COVID-19 crisis is over.

I don't know whether it is possible to determine this, but, in absolute numbers, how many additional employees would the commission need to operate properly?

11:15 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Right now, the commission has 62 investigators. I have asked the government to add at least 20 to 25 investigators to keep us afloat.

Even if we had those additional resources, we would still have to negotiate with institutions that also have limited resources. People from those institutions must respond to Canadians' access requests, but also to the access request of my investigators for our investigations. They often have to choose between the two. That is a huge source of issues, as well.

I need additional resources, but the institutions surely also need them to meet the demand of Canadians and that of my office.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

You said that a cultural change was necessary. In a few words, what kind of a change would you make to the culture?

11:15 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

The Access to Information Act states that Canadians have the right to access information, with very few exceptions. When an organization receives my access to information requests, it wonders what information it cannot provide instead of wondering what information it can provide.

When I talk to ministers and deputy ministers, I see that they really want to develop a culture of transparency, but it is as if it was automatic. It would seem that because of the exceptions and exclusions provided under the act, they feel obligated to censor the documents they transmit.

In training for officials, it would be useful to show them that everything they do in their work is accessible to Canadians. That would help a cultural change occur. The emphasis should not be placed on what we don't want to give to Canadians, but on what we want to transmit to them. Officials' work is important. It would be amazing if that kind of a cultural change could be achieved.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

You were talking about departments that also have limited resources. I am engaged in brainstorming with you today. Would it be a good idea to have investigators from the commission in every department?

11:15 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

To maintain the commission's independence, there must be separation among operations.

It would be interesting for the Treasury Board to have a team of specialists that could be deployed in various departments during a crisis such as COVID-19. If an agency provided training across government—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

Mr. Green, you have five minutes.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We've certainly heard, at least in my opinion, some pretty damning findings about the state of our federal government in its access to information. We've heard about still using paper copies, scanners, photocopies and CDs. I did a check on my computer here to see if I had a CD-ROM. I can't seem to find one, so here we are.

I'm taken aback, but at the same time, after hearing the testimonies of other people in this committee, I'm not all that surprised. You may recall that we had some departments report that they were still using DOS in their computer operating systems. I think what stuck out most was the idea that access delayed is access denied.

I have a question, and I'm unsure if the commissioner is able to answer this. How often do your ATIP requests bump up against the redacted clauses around cabinet confidentiality?

11:15 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

It's not very often. It's a small percentage of our complaints. The problem with cabinet confidence is that we're not allowed to see the document to be confident that it is cabinet confidence, because according to the act, it's not within my jurisdiction to see those. This is one thing I will actually be recommending to change for the next legislative review, because there's not an independent review of the documents. If the department says that it's cabinet confidence, we have to take them at their word.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Is it just a small percentage, though? It doesn't happen often.

11:20 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Yes, it's a small percentage. I think most Canadians know that they're not entitled to see cabinet confidence documents, so they rarely complain about that specific exclusion unless it's part of a package. Most of the time, it's because it's not just the cabinet confidence but other documents being redacted that are part of the complaint.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I know that in trying to pass a previous motion, that clause was put in. I anticipate that the clause will probably see itself revisited, today perhaps. I'm just curious around that. I'd like it if maybe at a future date we could have a study on that and figure out what the balance is between solicitor-client privilege and cabinet confidentiality versus parliamentary privilege and access to information, but I'll set that aside for the moment.

You had stated—or I think I heard you state at least—that not every department had in its departmental or operational plan a focus on access to information. Is that correct?

11:20 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada