Evidence of meeting #21 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caroline Maynard  Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada
Michael A. Dagg  As an Individual
Allan Cutler  President, Anti-Corruption and Accountability Canada
Sean Holman  Associate Professor of Journalism, Mount Royal University, Canadian COVID-19 Accountability Group
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, I think I will call the meeting to order now. We do have quorum. We will have some other witnesses joining us in just a few moments.

To let everyone know, we have two sessions again today. The first session will be with our Information Commissioner, Madam Caroline Maynard. That session I will be conducting hopefully in no more than 45 minutes, because in the second session we have three witnesses, all of whom have opening statements. To allow them enough time and to allow committee members enough time, I'd like to schedule 75 minutes for the second session.

That's how we'll conduct ourselves.

The first session, then, will be five minutes during the first round of interventions, followed by an intervention round of four minutes each, followed by the third and final intervention of two minutes each.

Before we begin I also want to make mention that we have submitted some proposed meeting times for our July and August meetings. We have not had official confirmation from our whips yet, but the proposed dates are Thursday, July 23, from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. eastern time for the July meeting, and Thursday, August 27, from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. eastern time for our August meeting. The whips have that in their control now. Once they confirm those dates we will be sending a notice out to all members.

Lastly, Madam Maynard, are you on the line and do you have your opening statement ready?

10:55 a.m.

Caroline Maynard Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

I am and I do.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

In that case, colleagues, I will call this meeting to order once again, and ask Madam Maynard to give her opening statement, hopefully, in five minutes or less.

10:55 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today to discuss accountability and access to information. Canadians have a right to request information from government through access to information requests to federal institutions. This is a quasi-constitutional right.

The right of access and the need for transparency have not been suspended during the pandemic. On the contrary, in this current extraordinary context, transparency and the well-being of the access system are more important than ever.

Major decisions with huge budget implications are being taken every day. New measures and programs related to the economy, public health and safety are being implemented on an almost daily basis. Canadians require information about how issues, policies and programs are being managed and developed in order to hold their government accountable.

Given that the Office of the Information Commissioner operates within the federal public service, I am very aware of the operational challenges the pandemic poses to federal institutions. Nevertheless, because transparency is the foundation of trust and because the access system is a pillar of government accountability, Canada’s leaders must take all necessary measures to ensure they are mitigating the impacts of the pandemic on the right of access. This includes ensuring a properly functioning access to information regime where decisions are being properly documented, information is well managed and access requests continue to be processed. I would like to outline for you just some of the factors that are creating barriers to the functioning of the system during the pandemic.

Most public servants have been working from home since the middle of March, not always by choice, and many have limited access to the networks or tools they normally have to do their jobs.

Providing access to information is not treated as an essential service to Canadians in almost all of the institutions' business continuity plans. In this situation, it can be challenging to manage information, capturing it and storing it in government repositories, especially when access to the network is limited for non-essential staff.

In many institutions, the transfer of information is outdated. Documents are still being sent by mail, CD-ROM and other mainly paper-based processes, which require access to scanners and photocopiers.

While some ATIP units are now fully operational, others have suspended operations completely. Most units are positioned somewhere between these two extremes. Such limited operations fundamentally restrict the government’s capacity to respond to access requests and to respect their new legislative obligation to proactively disclose some information.

There are other factors at play, but these are the major limitations that cannot be ignored, as they significantly affect transparency and delay, compromise and ultimately erode the government’s accountability to Canadians.

Although the pandemic has brought many new challenges, it has also created a window of opportunity to bring essential changes to the operating model of government and the culture that underlies it. I will continue to press the government for tangible action and results on this front.

In closing, I would like to reiterate that openness and transparency in government have never been more important than they are during the pandemic. The government needs to commit to proper resources and innovative solutions to ensure the right of access for all Canadians

Let’s not forget that access delayed is access denied.

Those are my opening remarks. I will be happy to respond to your questions now.

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We'll now start our five-minute round of questions with Mr. McCauley.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Madam, thank you for joining us today. I appreciate all the work you're doing on behalf of Canadians and transparency.

On April 28, you wrote to the TBS president, warning that we were at a breaking point for federal transparency. How did he respond? Did he respond with any actual actions or just mere words?

11 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

So far, I've had a couple of conversations with Monsieur Duclos and his team. They've been promising to.... They were saying they were taking this very seriously. They understand that this is a serious matter.

I've noticed that Monsieur Duclos has sent a letter to all institutions reminding them of their responsibilities and the need for openness and transparency in government. I am optimistic, but I am still waiting for actual, real, concrete actions.

As I said in my opening statement, some institutions have since reopened their business, so I think the message is getting through slowly but—

11 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

As of June 16, I got a copy of the institutions that have started. Funnily enough, Treasury Board, which is responsible for this, is not one of the ones actively doing their ATIPs, which is mind-boggling.

Last week we asked the chief information officer at TBS, who is nominally in charge of the ATIP process throughout the government. He was not even aware there was a problem. It's very disconcerting that we're just getting words.

What kinds of actions, besides expressions of concern, do we need from Minister Duclos and the government?

11:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

We definitely need more resources in this area.

One of the problems is that working remotely has demonstrated other challenges, which I don't think people were aware of, with the types of systems they're using, the networks that are not secured. If you're dealing with highly secret or protected information and you're working from home, often our network is not secure enough to do that. It has brought up many challenges that, again, working from the office, were not something that people were aware of.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Right, but this is not a new problem. We've been a heavy user of ATIPs, and we actually have an ATIP going back three years now that was only asking about specific information regarding one person advising PSPC. My colleague Tom Kmiec has 50 outstanding ATIPs, some going back three years. I laugh that one of my ATIPs will soon qualify for the MPs' pension, it's been so long.

This is not a recent occurrence. What do we need to do to light a fire under people, to make them understand that it is a basic right for Canadians and members of Parliament to access this?

11:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

I think access has to be seen not as a suboperation activity of government. It has to be part of every public servant's commitment to Canadians.

We need more training and more resources. The number of access requests has increased by 225% in the last six years. The resources have not followed through. Information management has not been changed. We need to have better systems. There are so many little things that can be done that would have a huge impact.

I think the major thing is that the workload has increased, but when I talk to the community, they tell me they have the same number of analysts dealing with this. They just can't respond to all the demand.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

It sounds like the resources have stayed the same, and the “hide everything” attitude of the government has stayed the same.

Do we need to change your position so that your reporting structure reports to the Speaker, much like the Parliamentary Budget Officer does, so that there are completely autonomous actions from your department?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

You only have a few seconds for a response, Madam Maynard.

11:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

I am completely independent of government. I report directly to Parliament, so I am reporting to you as an independent agent.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Do you not report through the Treasury Board, through the minister?

11:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

No. I don't report to any minister.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Okay, I am mistaken.

Thank you for your time.

11:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to a five-minute round.

Mr. Jowhari, you have five minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Madam Maynard. As this week is National Public Service Week, I want to acknowledge the great work that all of our public servants are doing, as well as the great work that you and your team are doing.

I have three questions. I'll try to make them short and stay within my five minutes.

In the OIC 2020-21 departmental plan, there is discussion about a five-year strategic plan, which came into effect April 1, 2020. Can you quickly highlight the key components of the five-year strategic plan?

11:05 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

Yes. We decided to separate our strategic plan into three pillars.

We're spending a lot of effort on making sure that my office is the best place to work and is a good environment for our employees, with retention policies and a harassment-free environment, so there is an HR component and a resource component.

There's also an innovative component, because we, as with any other institution, have been struggling in making sure we are up to date on all of our software and in our processes.

The last pillar is transparency and credibility. I want to make sure, when I issue recommendations, decisions or orders, that people ultimately trust we are doing this on an unbiased basis and that our investigations are faster than they've ever been. As I said earlier, access delayed is access denied. The information is relevant now. If my investigations take years to be completed, there will be no trust in my own agency. I want to make sure that we're up to date on everything so that Canadians trust my work too.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

When you talked about the second pillar, which was the innovative component, you talked about the systems. On April 28, you published a letter to the TBS minister, within which you specifically said, “the access to information system...is currently in a critical phase and may soon be beyond repair”.

Can you expand on what systems they are? What are we going to do if these systems fail, especially with the extra stress that's going to be on the systems during COVID?

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

To give you an example, many institutions are still exchanging documents within the same department, from sector to sector, through mail, using paper, or if they send documents by email to, let's say, the analysts at the ATIP shop, they have to print those and scan them back into their software to start doing the redaction. There's a lot of wasted time transferring documents, which are electronic to start with, making them paper-based and then turning them back into an electronic version—

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Transferring information, on top of resources and remote work is—

11:10 a.m.

Information Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Caroline Maynard

That's just one example.

We send information to requesters by mail or CD-ROM, and a lot of our requesters have been complaining about it for years now. Who has a CD-ROM reader anymore in their office?