Evidence of meeting #3 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was loans.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-Yves Duclos  President of the Treasury Board
Glenn Purves  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Marcia Santiago  Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates, Treasury Board Secretariat
Baxter Williams  Executive Director, Employment Conditions and Labour Relations, Treasury Board Secretariat

9:50 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

As I said to the minister and as I say to you, I would ask that you provide answers in writing, through the clerk, to any questions posed that you had no chance to answer verbally. You've agreed to do that and I appreciate that.

9:50 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Absolutely—to correct misrepresentations. Thank you.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

I appreciate that.

Mr. Jowhari, you have six minutes.

9:50 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Purves, for your intervention and for being here today.

In his opening remarks, the minister indicated that a $3.8-billion voted allocation was going to reconciliation, armed forces and climate change. I'd like to focus on the reconciliation. I think it was mentioned that around $919 million is going to about three or four initiatives. He quickly highlighted the $588 million for child and family services, about $230 million for first nations children under Jordan’s principle, and another $150 million for first nations emergency management services.

The biggest number in there is the $588 million. It's focused on funding child and family services. As you know, we debated Bill C-6, which talked about changing the oath. We heard that this was a symbolic move and that there were no fundamental and substantive initiatives taken by the government to help the indigenous. Given the fact that there is an investment of almost $1 billion here, can you give me a better understanding of the $588 million that's being spent on child and family services?

9:55 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Sure. Thank you very much.

You mentioned a few things, actually. I just want to make sure there's a clear line of sight in terms of what is in the supplementary estimates to support indigenous writ large.

You did talk about the $919 million. This is for loan forgiveness. It was announced as part of, I believe, budget 2019. There have been many negotiations since 1975, and the government has paid and provided loans for these negotiations. The forgiveness is a retroactive lens going back, with continuous payments as well to support indigenous groups that are actively engaged in comprehensive claims negotiations with the government. That's one item.

The $588 million for first nations child and family services is to improve access to prevention and early intervention programs to maintain the well-being and cultural connections of first nations children in care. This is above and beyond the existing funding that was approved in the main estimates for this purpose. This is above and beyond, supplemental funding that is largely demand-driven. It's driven by the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal rulings in ensuring that indigenous children receive the same care as any child. It's not a new policy or a new initiative. It's just providing the same current basis of support under the existing policy.

I hope that answers your question.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Yes, but can you go a bit deeper? What are the types of child and family services being provided?

9:55 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

They're the provision of medical support and the reimbursement for first nations agencies that are providing such support, and for provincial agencies that are providing such support, so that the standard of care is at a level that is expected through the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal ruling.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Another $232 million was allocated for first nations children under Jordan's principle. Can you expand on that, please?

9:55 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

It provides a wide range of health, social and education services in support of first nations children who qualify under Jordan's principle. This again is above and beyond the funding that has already been provided for Jordan's principle.

Just to give you a sense, when we tabled the main estimates, budget 2019, as part of budget implementation, voted an approved $404 million to continue implementing Jordan's principle. This is above and beyond existing funding that the department has in its reference levels. This funding was included in main estimates under vote 20 of Indigenous Services.

This is above and beyond. This is in order to address additional volume, demands and services to maintain that standard as defined under Jordan's principle currently.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

There are 40 seconds left.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, do you want to ask a quick question?

10 a.m.

Liberal

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I know the Department of Employment and Social Development is requesting $180 million under vote 90(b) to write off unrecoverable debts in terms of directly financed Canada student loans.

What percentage of the total loans out there does this represent in terms of the writeoffs?

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I understand there's a stock of about $34 billion. Typically what happens is that from a fiscal planning standpoint they end up putting a provision in the fiscal framework for loans. This is effectively the end result of non-performing loans, going to CRA and seeking six years in order to see if they can be retrievable. Then, at some point, it's just a required expense that has to be done under ESDC's page proof.

Vote 90 is used to facilitate that. There's no actual payment that goes out; it's just an expense to facilitate that. It's ongoing.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you.

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

For years, the range has been—

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Madame Vignola, please. You have six minutes.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I see that, in 2019-20, for the Department of Health, there is a drop in investments of about $800 million compared with what was provided in 2017-18.

In 2017-18, the amount was nearly $3.5 billion. It is now at $2.7 billion, which is a decrease. What explains that?

In addition, this is happening in a context where all the provinces are calling for a 5.2% increase in transfers.

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

Thank you very much for the question.

Allow me to answer you in English.

I don't actually have the information to show the distinction. You're talking about 2018-19, and the reference level of 2018-19 for health versus the authorities proposed to date, of about $2.7 billion here.

I'd be happy to get back to you with a written response on that, just to make sure that it's a thorough response.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

I was wondering about that because of the provinces' requests for better transfers. I see the figures decreasing compared with 2017-18, despite the provinces' request.

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

10 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Those requests go back several months.

For the time being, I am fine with your answer.

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

I can give you another explanation.

For transfers—the Canada health transfer, Canada social transfer, equalization, and so forth—that doesn't show up here with respect to this.

10 a.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Okay.

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

If you go to the main estimates, I believe you'll see, effectively, for 2019-20, the start of the year, about $175 billion. Those large transfers are part of that structure and we started reporting on statutory expenses because parliamentarians were asking to get a lens in terms of, when they're having to vote, having the same information about stat to get a big picture of the global spend for government.

In terms of changes to transfers, it would not be reflected here—

10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Glenn Purves

These are for voted amounts, non-statutory amounts.