Evidence of meeting #10 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was digital.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Brouillard  Acting Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Paul Glover  President, Shared Services Canada
Samantha Hazen  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Chief Financial Officer Branch, Shared Services Canada
Jean-Yves Duclos  President of the Treasury Board
Kathleen Owens  Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karen Cahill  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Glenn Purves  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Paul Cardegna

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)) Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Good evening, everybody.

I'm calling the meeting to order. We're a minute ahead of time. Thank you for being here.

I'd like to welcome you to meeting 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

The committee is meeting today from 6:29 to 8:29 to hear from the Minister of Digital Government and the President of the Treasury Board on the supplementary estimates (B) 2020-21.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Interpretation of this video conference will work very much like in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen to use either the floor, English or French. I would ask that you choose the language in which you will be speaking. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute. In response to a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure that their microphone is unmuted and say “point of order” to get the chair’s attention.

In order to ensure social distancing in the committee room, if you need to speak privately with the clerk or analysts during the meeting, please email them through the committee email address. For those people who are participating in the committee room, please note that masks are required unless you are seated and when physical distancing is not possible.

I will now invite the Minister of Digital Government to make her opening statement.

November 30th, 2020 / 6:30 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Joyce Murray LiberalMinister of Digital Government

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the committee for inviting me here again to discuss the 2020-21 supplementary estimates (B) for the digital government portfolio.

I'm joining you from the traditional unceded territory of the Musqueam, Tsleil-Waututh and Squamish peoples.

As Minister of Digital Government, I lead the teams of the chief information officer and the Canadian Digital Service—both in the Treasury Board Secretariat—as well as Shared Services Canada, to deliver the government's digital service agenda.

Today, I'm joined again by Karen Cahill, chief financial officer for TBS; Marc Brouillard, CIO for the Government of Canada; Paul Glover, president of Shared Services Canada; and lastly, Samantha Hazen, CFO for Shared Services Canada.

As the minister responsible for the government's digital transformation, part of my mandate is to work with my ministerial colleagues to provide federal public servants with the tools and strategies they need to design and deliver the services Canadians expect in the digital era: services that are secure, reliable and easy to use.

To continue our successful shift so far to digital government, we must also change how we work within. Instead of seeing departments as siloed organizations with separated responsibilities, we need to think across government as a whole because that's the only way that we can provide seamless service to the public.

Each of the teams that I lead—SSC, CDS, and OCIO—has a key role, from setting government-wide policy and standards on service and digital, to supporting and modernizing the IT that supports digital delivery, to building the digital tools that are deployed across departments and that serve Canadians on the front lines.

This work is starting to break down the culture of silos and bring in an enterprise approach. This is how we will become a modern, digitally enabled government that delivers reliable service at any time from any device—including in person—the kind of service that Canadians expect.

COVID-19 has highlighted the fact that new policies and programs are important, but even more important is just how we deliver them.

Is a particular service convenient for the person receiving it? As an MP with an office that helps constituents, I can tell you that, historically, sometimes it's not that convenient. However, last spring when Canadians and businesses urgently needed financial support, they couldn't wait and couldn't apply in person, so departments worked together to quickly deliver new programs and services digitally. It was all hands on deck. That's how we delivered programs like the CERB or the COVID Alert app in a matter of weeks.

This urgent digital response to COVID-19 often took public servants outside of their regular processes and comfort zones. That culture change is critical to my work going forward. I'm focused on seizing this momentum so that our government can deliver better, faster and more-reliable services to Canadians in the future.

The items included in the supplementary estimates (B) reflect the increasing need to deliver the types of services that Canadians expect.

In these estimates, Shared Services Canada is requesting Parliament's approval to increase its authorities by $278.4 million to $2.49 billion.

This increase includes $91 million for IT services that directly support COVID-19 emergency relief programs, including rapid deployment of connectivity, collaboration tools, and emergency IT equipment for public servants.

It includes $84 million to replace data centre equipment for safe storage of information and network tools to reduce vulnerabilities and meet security standards.

It includes $37.3 million for IT modernization initiatives, including activities that advance a digitally enabled workforce, and $31.1 million for the secure cloud enablement and defence project to build secure access to cloud services, which will in turn provide better services to Canadians.

It will include $23.5 million for core information technology services and funding to support partner-led initiatives, and $10 million for secure video conferencing to expand secure communications for ministerial communications and cabinet committee meetings. These investments will help to provide federal public servants and departments with the tools, guidance and capacity they need to improve operations and support the delivery of better services in the digital age.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I am pleased to take questions from the committee.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that.

We will go now into the first round of questioning, with Mr. Lloyd for six minutes.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for appearing again before committee.

For my first question, Shared Services Canada—which is under your portfolio, and which exists to provide the federal government with IT and digital services—will spend a reported $2.1 billion this year. That's over a 40% increase from when you took office.

I also read, in the annual Bloomberg Innovation Index, which measures countries' innovation in things such as the digital economy, that Canada had actually fallen two places, year over year. We've fallen behind countries such as Slovenia, Australia and Italy.

I'm wondering, with a 40% increase in spending on digital services, why are we falling behind when it comes to innovation?

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I will say that SSC continues to work to transform the IT and digital fundamentals of the Government of Canada based on modern enterprise standards. As we had discussed in the last committee meeting, there had been, really, decades of underinvestment in our IT infrastructure and connectivity. We started with a huge deficit in 2016, and we have begun the process of investing so we can update and maintain these systems as we go along. That is critical to better serving Canadians.

I'm happy to talk about some of the specific things that will be done with the estimates (B) funding.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

I'll move onto the next question, but thank you, Minister.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Yes.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Some stakeholders have raised with me the issue of what they view as a disturbing trend, called “project splitting”. Project splitting reportedly happens when there's one large project with a large amount of money involved, and it requires a great deal of signing authority and scrutiny. What's been observed, allegedly, is a strategy in the departments to split projects into smaller, bite-size projects so that they do not require more signing authority.

Is this a procurement strategy that you, as minister, endorse for digital government?

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

SSC is a major procurer of goods and services. I'm very proud of the focus on procuring from small and medium-size businesses. We spend about 87% of our money on SMEs, of which almost all is going to Canadian companies.

We're looking to modernize our procurement, actually, so there is a range now of new initiatives to focus on even more opportunities for indigenous Canadians to supply services to SSC. Also, we're working with a set of associations that represent women entrepreneurs, Black entrepreneurs, people of colour and indigenous entrepreneurs so that we can make sure there are opportunities for those under-represented groups in our procurement. We have some very exciting new procurement models. The digital marketplace, for example, will create opportunities working—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you, Minister, I appreciate that.

In the last meeting I mentioned a case related to Global Affairs, which had completed a project that led to Cisco offering lower prices than those offered to Shared Services Canada for the same products that Shared Services Canada procured through a sole-source contract. Your team mentioned that it needed more specifics.

The project in question is the Lester B. Pearson rehabilitation project for the local area network. It was completed in August this year, primarily for switches.

In the last one to two years, if it's true that Shared Services Canada purchased the same equipment provided by Cisco to Global Affairs for this project, can you please consider why the cost was so much lower when Global Affairs Canada did an RFP? Why is Shared Services Canada not also conducting RFPs so it can get the best prices for Canadian taxpayers?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

As I mentioned, we're modernizing our procurement policies and practices to make them more inclusive, simple, digitally enabled and open to more innovative solutions. I think that for the project that you have just raised, the strategy on that procurement was validated by an independent advisory firm.

There is sometimes the need to consider compatibility with older legacy equipment that is in place. Sometimes we have no choice but to go with an existing supplier to have interoperability. I can tell you that all new data centres are procured competitively and wherever we can it is open procurement.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you.

That actually leads me to my final question, Minister, for this round. In our previous meeting, the staff had mentioned that no new data centres were being built, but I have been told that the CRA is presently building a new data centre.

Can you confirm that the procurement for this CRA project, including the networking, will be completed in an open, competitive manner based on functional requirements and not on the current requirements, or the previous requirements that only allowed for incumbent players to compete on these projects?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

The four enterprise data centres are in place. That's not being procured now.

I will turn it over to Mr. Glover to answer your specific question about the centre you've referred to.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Minister.

That was an excellent question. I'm wondering if Mr. Glover would be able to provide us a written answer to that.

We'll now go to Mr. Jowhari for six minutes.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, Minister, and your officials.

Minister, as you know, we are well into what's called the second wave of the pandemic. We are all doing our best to make sure that we protect ourselves and our loved ones. The government's been in the forefront of making sure that there is sufficient PPE out there. Rapid tests have been well distributed and continue to be distributed to provinces.

Another tool that's being heavily discussed and that you mentioned at your last appearance is the COVID Alert app. I was looking at an update today and I think we're at a 5.5 million people who have adopted it, which is about 15%. I know that we need anywhere between 60% to 80% adoption to be able to really do it justice.

Can you expand on how your department has been involved in developing the COVID Alert? What are some of the challenges with the potential hesitancy about it that's being felt out there?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I would love to answer that question. I'm always happy to promote COVID Alert. Thank you for the question.

It's an important tool for keeping Canadians safe. The first thing I want to say is that there was recently a study by Stanford and Oxford researchers working with the fundamental Apple-Google foundation for these apps, which has concluded that it is effective at any level. In fact, at 15% uptake, their model—which was based on three counties in the State of Washington—suggests that the use of the COVID Alert app at 15% can reduce deaths by 6% and reduce infections by 8%. That means we are already saving lives with COVID Alert.

The Canadian Digital Service worked with some open source code that the Ontario Digital Service had started working with, based on an Apple-Google foundation to create an app that.... One of the fundamental parts of this app and why people should feel safe and confident in downloading it is that it was designed with privacy utmost in mind. It does not track users' information. It doesn't track their location. It doesn't collect their data in any way. Even the federal Privacy Commissioner has said he is planning to download it.

Mr. Jowhari, how it works is that if a person with the app is within six feet of someone else with the app for over a certain time period, their phones will exchange Bluetooth signals. That way, should someone test positive, they will be given a one-time key that they can put into their phone and their phone will then send a notification to anyone with whom they were in close proximity for that time period.

We've done some upgrades already to refine it and narrow the window of potential vulnerability more closely. We're continuing to make sure that this is as effective as possible. We're working with provinces like British Columbia and Alberta to respond to their questions and concerns. Both of those provinces could use this app, and I'm optimistic that they will be part of this national program before too long.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Minister.

Could we switch topics and talk about the digital platform that's being made available for some of these programs that we are rolling out as part of the COVID-19 response?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Yes.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Can you shed some light on what tools and services your department is rolling out in support of Canadians?

Often users find these very difficult to be able to navigate. We are becoming accustomed to tools such as innovation.canada.ca, where you can go in and talk about your business story, and it gives you all of the options.

Are we thinking about something like that, such that if you have a COVID story, you could tell it and they'll give you all of the programs that might be available for you and automatically connect you to the CRA and other services? Can you shed some light on that?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Yes, I can talk abut the things we've done already, and they're very much focused on people—very much customer focused, as you're alluding to.

CDS put together “Get Updates on COVID-19”, along with Service Canada, so that individuals could go to one place and put in some non-identifying information and get everything they might be eligible to receive and how to apply for it. That's just one.

Another one is a simple way for ministries to notify people quickly, easily and securely of updates of what's going on and what they need to know. I think there have been over five million updates that have been sent out, many of them from the health ministry. This is a program they update called Notify, found at notification.canada.ca. It's being used by provinces and other organizations, because it just makes it so much easier.

There are other ones I could mention, but I think I will turn it over to Marc Brouillard briefly to add his context.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Robert Gordon Kitchen

Thank you, Minister.

Once again, six minutes goes by very quickly, so if we could ask someone to follow that up with a written response, we would appreciate if you sent to the clerk.

We will now go to Ms. Vignola.

You have six minutes.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Murray, in votes 1b and 5b, Shared Services Canada is requesting $91 million for existing and additional IT infrastructure and services, and for cybersecurity.

Which specific departments will benefit from the requested funding for IT infrastructure and services?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Thank you for that.

It was significant funding that Shared Services Canada accessed, and $91 million was for hardware, software and infrastructure that was purchased and deployed in direct support of Canada's COVID-19 pandemic response, such as COVID-19 emergency relief programs for Canadians.

When those public servants had to suddenly work from home, there was a doubling of their capabilities and so on.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC

That's obvious, but which specific departments will benefit?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Pardon me?